106: Local authorities, community energy and a just transition

How can local authorities collaborate with community energy groups to deliver a just transition? To explore this question, Fraser and Jen – making their co-hosting debut – are joined by Ellie Radcliffe, Project Manager at Carbon Coop, and Charlotte Norton, Associate Director at the Carbon Trust.

The conversation focuses on the Innovate UK-funded Net Zero Living programme, which aims to help local authorities accelerate the transition to net zero.

Links:

Carbon Co-op: https://carbon.coop/

Carbon Trust: https://www.carbontrust.com/

Net Zero Living programme: https://iuk-business-connect.org.uk/programme/net-zero-living/

Episode 12 – Community energy: power to the people: https://www.localzeropod.com/episodes/12-community-energy-power-to-the-people

Episode 35 – How to kick-start community energy?: https://www.localzeropod.com/episodes/community-energy

Episode 70 – Putting the "us" in energy justice: https://www.localzeropod.com/episodes/putting-the-us-in-energy-justice?rq=70

Episode 105 – The Local Power Plan and community energy: https://www.localzeropod.com/episodes/105-the-local-power-plan-and-community-energy-with-energy-minister-michael-shanks-mp

Transcript

Ellie: Thinking creatively about what the potential is, but all on the predication that it is within community or public ownership, is where the opportunity is. It's, it's massive. 

Jen: Hello, I'm Jen Roberts. 

Fraser: And I'm Fraser Stewart. Welcome to Local Zero.

In this episode, we're focusing on local authorities and asking how they can collaborate with local community energy groups and other stakeholders to deliver a just transition. 

Jen: And to explore this really interesting topic, we'll be joined later in the episode by Ellie Radcliffe, Project Manager at Carbon Co-Op, and Charlotte Norton, Associate Director at The Carbon Trust. And we'll be focusing on work happening within the Net Zero Living Programme. Fraser, I know you've been involved in that, so can you tell us a bit about what that is? 

Fraser: Yeah, so Net Zero Living is a programme of innovation and support funded by Innovate UK. Its purpose is to enable local authorities across the UK to overcome barriers when it comes to delivering their own clean energy and decarbonisation projects and plans.

So the support provided spans policy and regulation, planning, finance, citizen engagement, data, digitalisation, and loads more stuff besides. So within this programme, Regen have been leading the policy and regulation support, and there's been a really, really big focus on how local authorities and community energy can collaborate to deliver a fast and fair net zero transition.

So that's exactly what we're gonna be digging into today. 

Jen: Really important stuff. And longtime listeners will be quite familiar with topics around community and local energy. You know, going back as far as episode 12, episode titled “Power to the People”. Episode 35 was about how to kickstart community energy.

And we also looked at “Putting the us in energy justice” in episode 70. And then of course our last episode that just dropped is about the Local Power Plan and community energy, hearing from Energy Minister Michael Shanks. So we've been having that conversation here in Local Zero for quite a long time. It'd be really interesting to see how things have progressed.

Fraser: And it's a, a critical time for, for community energy, local energy, and the just transition. It's very, very high on the government agenda, the policy agenda, and the political agenda today. But before we get into this conversation, a quick reminder as ever to follow Local Zero on LinkedIn, to stay-up-to-date with all of our news and to let us know your thoughts and suggestions for future episodes. Just search for "Local Zero podcast". 

Jen: And wherever you listen, remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. 

Fraser: So, Jen, this is a, I think it's fair to say a landmark episode in that it's you and I's first episode without the diligent supervision of, of Matthew Hannon. 

Jen: I know. I'm excited to hang out together, Fraser. it's just you and me! And of course, our guests. 

Fraser: We'll try and and do Matt proud in all of this, but if there's mischief, we apologise in advance. 

Jen: I hate we've done a lot of homework because you know, normally he's the one that's got all the notes. 

Fraser: Yeah, we might have to wing it a little bit here.

Jen: Well, I can wing it with some really, um, it's a very small piece of news, but it's really, I, I'm pretty excited by it, Fraser. So I found out an example of a project that went to consultation, and by having conversation with the public in that space, the direction of the project has pretty much changed almost entirely, not completely because funds are associated and so on. I can't give the details, but I was really excited to hear of a project that had genuinely changed direction in response to what the local community fed into that. Isn’t that cool?

Fraser: I think it's very, very cool. We hear so much about engagement being done on a kind of tick-box basis, um, without any real sincerity behind it. I wonder, Jen, if, if you can reflect on what you think was different about this particular process or project that that led to that?

Jen: Leadership. Yeah, so the, the fact that the community members, when they fed into that process, then the people delivering on that project took the leadership to say, “actually this isn't right. This isn't what the community wants”. It wasn't an outlandish proposal, an outlandish project. It was one that very much aligns with the, you know, we're talking about local authorities today, about, about local authority, direction of travel.

But it wasn't what the community want and need at this time, and it's responded accordingly. So I did say that that's really cool, but actually it's also really not cool. This should be happening, in that projects should be getting shaped by the community. It should be that this is a process that doesn't necessarily require super strong leadership; it’s just quite normal.

But I have to say I've been really struggling to find that portfolio of, of cases of evidence where directions have changed. Yeah, I guess this is an appeal to our listeners perhaps: if you can think of, you know, examples where project directions have changed in response to local communities and that the communities are gonna get what they really wanted, now.

It's not that they said “no” to a project, and that project's gone. It's like, yeah, the funding has been able to change to meet the needs of the community in a way that still meets the objective of the, of the proposal from the, from the outset. 

Fraser: Yeah. We'd love to hear it, and I think it speaks a little bit to the theme of this episode and also to some, some other news that's come out since the previous episode on the Local Power Plan.

We've now had the announcement, uh, from UK Government about what GB Energy’s, the, the national energy company, what GB Energy's first tranche of investment in local and community energy will be. So they've announced, um, a huge, huge amount of grant funding for a bunch of NHS buildings and schools in England, first and foremost, to install solar, to bring down their bills and allow them to put the savings made from that into frontline services, which is very, very positive, we would argue.

Maybe a missed opportunity for community ownership within that. But alongside this, uh, they've also announced, a future stream of community energy funding. So 5 million for community energy organisations in England, an additional four-and-a-bit million in Scotland on top of the Community and Renewable Energy Scheme, which is great.

Some in Wales, some in Northern Ireland, uh, but a clear opening salvo, a signal of intent from UK Government. It seems to want to really drive local and community energy forward. Um, although not without issue. But Jen, I wanted to get your sort of instinctive as a person who doesn't plug into the news cycle, maybe quite as, um, obsessively as some of us, I wanted to get your instinctive thoughts. 

Jen: It is exciting. That sounds really cool, Fraser. It also, I am sometimes like “We're in 2025. How have we not done this already?”, but we are in this situation that we're in. And I think starting to see these projects like visibly and tangibly benefit from them, is also what I'm quite looking forward to. Yeah. What were your initial takeaways, Fraser? 

Fraser: Uh, so I, I think it's broadly positive. I like the idea that if you go to schools, NHS, the idea that you have a bit of a cyclical ability to then support better frontline services. I think that's, that's good, assuming that that happens in practice.

Jen: Yeah.

Fraser: I’m sure there'll be challenges, but I do, I do lament a little bit a missed opportunity for more community ownership here because we know that NHS buildings, schools, et cetera, are often very, very, uh, productive partners for community energy groups who want to put solar on roofs. Um, they can also provide savings to those same buildings, but you then get the wider benefit of community ownership and participation and engagement within that.

Um, so maybe a little bit of a, a trick missed there. And we know there's no shortage of community organisations who are kind of chomping at the bit to take on some of these opportunities. Nonetheless, I don't think it's a, a bad policy. And in terms of next steps, how they then, one, identify the, the right places to spend their community energy funding.

Again, there's lots of community energy groups raring to go here, so I, I imagine it, it won't last very long. Um, but there's also some bits around community energy, such as the ability to connect to the grid. They won't have the feed-in tariff anymore, so the business model isn't quite as strong as it used to be.

A few different things that still need to happen to really unlock the sector, but again, taking it very much as a positive, a positive signal. 

Jen: Yeah. And I'd love to ask our guests in a moment about that missed opportunity and why, why it was missed, because there'll be reasons and rationale, I hope. I hope! Behind the shaping of, of that policy. And I guess maybe this also links into one of the, the observations that I've been, I've been making lately, may, maybe the Local Power Plan and how it gets delivered can also help to start shifting the narrative about what transition really means and looks like – often that's boiled down to actually just energy.

Whereas the Climate Change Committee's most recent budget report is showing that there needs to be huge emphasis now on heat, um, heat and buildings and on transportation.

Fraser: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Those are the bits that have been very, very difficult to decarbonise that are gonna be really key to the next couple of decades. You know, we've done pretty well with energy. There's still more to do, but the really gnarly stuff is what's coming. And I think that that means we're gonna be starting to see other sorts of transitions, or not just, just energy, and the narrative so far has been just transition is energy, jobs, skills, money – and not necessarily those other, wider co-benefits, including like in the public realm about placemaking.

And perhaps this is an opportunity through the Local Power Plan is also to start to operationalise place-based, just transition in a multitude of different benefits to communities, and what this really means. And I guess today maybe we can find out a bit about what's needed to sort of execute such a relationship as well. So yeah, all very relevant to our topics today.

Fraser: Yeah, I, I think that's such a pertinent point. What is the actual outcome here that government is trying to achieve…

Jen: Yeah.

Fraser: With the Local Power Plan? Is it more community owned wind and solar in and of itself – is that the end game?

Jen: Yeah. Or is there something more?

Fraser: Because in the sector, and I, I'm sure we would agree that part of the, the benefit of a more place-based approach to all of this is the ability of trusted local actors with community interest at their core to, uh, work with local residents, citizens, wider communities, and stakeholders to do all of the other stuff that still needs to happen, right?

Jen: Yeah.

Fraser: The heat decarbonisation, the transport, the taking ownership and redeveloping local economies. There's a, a, a far bigger prize here that community-owned wind and solar can be a foundation for a, a backbone for it. It can help towards that. But I'd be interested to know is, is that where government’s thinking stops, or do they sort of recognise that actually there's a lot of appetite and demand, uh, once you get further down the line and probably an awful lot more, more value to be enabled?

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. It's something we can totally dive into today, and also I think will come up in future episodes as well. There's some of the things that we have planned down the line.

Fraser: Yeah. Absolutely. So we should get into this conversation with our wonderful guests. Uh, before that, just to say thank you to Adam for his review on Apple Podcasts of episode 104, which was all about Biodiversity Net Gain.

Fraser: Adam said, “I absolutely love this episode. Inspired me to rewild my back garden. I'll let you know how that goes”. Please do – please keep in touch. 

Jen: And if any of our episodes make you think differently or take action like Adam, then please do let us know. I must say the discussion around Biodiversity Net Gain gain did push up my to-do list, my ideas, to put a little pond in my shared back garden as part of my ongoing challenge to try and stop my neighbours from recording at the vineyard and actually reframe it as a little patch of nature that we are custodians for, and we welcome all the toads.

Fraser: I think that's a good, a good tagline, uh, for, for our movement, Jen, is “We welcome all the toads”.

Jen: “All toads welcome”. 

Fraser: Aw, Matt would be so disappointed in this conversation, I think. And with that, should we bring in our guests? 

Jen: Let's bring in the guests. 

Ellie: Hi, I am Ellie Radcliffe. I'm a Project Manager at Carbon Co-op in the Energy Commons team. And I have a background in community wealth-building and climate, in particular, when it comes to local economic development, having worked at CLES um, the Center for Local Economic Strategies, and I'm actually working on a project in Oldham at the moment, which is connected to the Net Zero Living Places project, as well.

Charlotte: Hi there. I'm Charlotte Norton. I'm an Associate Director at the Carbon Trust. The Carbon Trust are one of the technical assistance partners on the Net Zero Living Programme. Outside of the Net Zero Living Programme, we’re also one of the lead delivery partners on the Welsh Government Energy Service, which provides support to community and public sectors in Wales to develop renewable energy projects, among other things. 

Fraser: Great. Thank you both very much for joining us for this discussion, which is very much focused on, on the relationship and the collaboration between local authorities and community energy to deliver more just transition. To set the scene for this conversation, Ellie, I wondered if I could come to you first. What is the opportunity of local authorities and community energy collaborating on local climate action? 

Ellie: Ooh, there's a lot. Um, so I think as a starting point, and this is really situating this within the context of the work that I'm doing now, but also I've done previously.

I wanted to highlight that when we talk about community energy, we're not just talking about generation.

Fraser: Mm-hmm.

Ellie: You know, community energy organisations could cover energy advice. In my case, Carbon Co-op has done stacks of work around retrofit, but I'm gonna focus on energy generation right now. So on previous work, I'd say one of the biggest opportunities and, and one of the ways that I would encourage people to think about the opportunity in terms of collaboration, is how we make sure that the investment that's coming into renewables development is retained within our economies, particularly our local economies.

So collaboration between democratic institutions, like local authorities and community energy organisations really creates a space to make sure that the investment that's coming in is held and stands to benefit local areas really considerably.

But I'd say beyond that, the fact that local authorities are in a much stronger position a lot of the time to support the development of funding applications or considering how to actually make these projects happen in areas that maybe need some support in terms of capacity building and skills development, or working out routes in.

Is very, very significant, really. Um, there's a big role for local authorities in that space and we're certainly seeing that in Oldham, through the work that we're doing there, and the sort of focus they have on engaging with communities that maybe are less heard a lot of the time when it comes to, um, new renewables projects and, more broadly, energy planning as a whole.

Fraser: And Charlotte, same question: what’s the opportunity here, thinking about how local authorities can support community energy, but also the other way around? 

Charlotte: I would totally agree with everything Ellie said, um, particularly where she said that there was a huge opportunity for collaboration. I think in terms of sort of tackling climate change, I think, I think we do have a broad consensus now that it requires action at all levels.

You know, we need national governments, we need big corporates to do actions, but we also need local organisations and local people to take action. I think where the local authorities working with the community energy sector can really help is, is reaching out to individuals in the community who might not already be engaged in the energy and climate change space.

Both local authorities and community energy groups, or community groups in general, have relationships with their local communities in different ways, and by working together I think they can compliment one another's messages and activities and initiatives to reach, reach people further and sort of really kind of increase engagement and potential for action.

I think if a local authority sort of provides support to a community energy organisation they can help add credibility, sometimes reach out to some of those who, who might have sort of a more of a connection with the local authority. Similarly, the other way around where there's sort of sometimes a bit of a breakdown in trust with the local authority. I think community energy organisations can really help to add credibility within the local community about what the local authority are trying to do and why they're trying to do it. So I think together they can support one another's messages and actions. 

Jen: It's so interesting and I heard, you know, mutual benefit there, collaboration, exchange, capacity building. I mean, I think we're probably all aligned in this conversation around seeing the huge potential and the opportunity. Also probably seeing this is one where the, the opportunity is, is, is missed for climate action, and the need to kind of align these, these objectives as well.

So I'm really interested to, to hear from you both about where you've seen this happen well, like, in practice. So where are there good examples of local authorities and community energy organisations coming together?

Charlotte: As part of the Net Zero Living Programme, we're actually in the process of sort of drafting some guidance documents for local authorities on how to develop community energy support programmes. And in doing that, we were gathering details of different case studies of activities that have been going on all around the UK. And honestly, there are a huge number of really good examples and different levels of support and, and different forms of support.

Some of the sort of activities that have really stuck out to me. A few years ago, I worked with Swansea Council. This one stays with me because I was directly involved in helping them. They wanted to establish a community energy organisation to support some of the more deprived communities in Swansea. And there was not a community energy organisation operating in the area at that time.

So the local authority sort of looked to set out and establish one and recruit sort of local people to help deliver it. It was really successful. They installed solar panels on nine schools and one care home in sort of the targeted areas of Swansea. And once the project was up and running, the local authorities stepped back their officer support.

That was back in 2015 or 2016, and since then it has been being run by the volunteer board of directors, which they recruited in. So I think that was a really good initiative where a local authority sort of helped initiate community energy where it wasn't already sort of operating. But then there's other ways where there is a really strong community energy sector in a local area. You know, local authorities can still help support it to and accelerate and sort of increase. 

Charlotte: One of the examples I came across sort of when we pulling together some examples was insights piece was Suffolk Council. They're doing a huge amount where they've got sort of public sector leaders all across the county to work together on all manner of initiatives where they want to become the greenest county.

Um, and there's loads of initiatives that they're doing, including sort of providing match funding to not-for-profit organisations, to implement low-carbon energy projects. They are doing a lot of activities around energy efficiency, targeted at households, but working with community energy organisations to signpost and deliver these initiatives. And they're also working with Community Energy Pathways to establish a network of organisations working across Suffolk within the community energy space and providing support to them in their journeys along the way with their projects, which is just amazing. Have a look on their website. There's a huge amount that they're up to. 

Jen: Sounds really interesting, like the role of the local authority as a connector. Ellie, how about you? I mean, you mentioned Oldham. What's particularly outstanding about the Oldham case, or are there other cases you want to talk about around kind of where this happens well, in practice?

Ellie: Yeah. Um, Oldham's a really interesting case in that, again, a, another comparable in terms of being the council initiating the process of setting up a community energy company. Yeah, the, the process was challenging. It wasn't straightforward. They went through quite a lengthy process with it.

But one example that I really wanted to mention was that of Plymouth and Plymouth Energy Community, which I think is a brilliant example and Charlotte's nodding her head, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue. Um, but basically, Plymouth Energy Community is interesting in that the council had impetus to kind of set up a community energy company and they had buy-in from senior leaders within the council.

Plymouth has a cooperative council as well, and it's important to remember that as kind of a, one of the reasons why they thought that this was important. But the council actually released some staff time to support the development of this community energy company basically, and that really helped it get off the ground.

But one thing that I think they did, which is really interesting from the perspective of, you know, looking at how you can use the type of wealth that's generated or, or being pushed into these initiatives to further that benefit within a local area or economy, was the way that they actually set up a project called Ernesettle Solar.

So basically, Plymouth Energy Community wanted to set up a solar array. The council had some land that was in an MOD blast zone, and basically the council was like, right, “What, what we meant to do with this land? We can't develop it as we usually would”. And they found a local community trust called Four Greens Community Trust, and basically leased the land to them for like a tiny, tiny rate.

Um, or I think they sold it to them. I'll have to double check. But basically, then the community trust rented the land to Plymouth Energy Community, and that meant that that community trust then had an income, like, a guaranteed income – and you know how challenging it is in kind of the, the voluntary sector to like get guaranteed income…

Fraser: Mm-hmm.

Ellie: And grant is so hard. So they were thinking about how they could actually use this mechanism not only to deliver on the environmental goals that they had, but also on the social and economic goals that they had for that area. And that was in a lower-income area of the city. But that connection really enabled them to build buy-in and support from local communities and to have that kind of contact through a really trusted intermediary to do further work.

And I think that that's really important when we're thinking about how these things can lock into other, other really important social infrastructure in a place, not just seeing renewable energy generation. So really seeing community energy as part of a broader ecosystem of support and, and connectivity in a place. 

Fraser: Yeah. We drew this point out – Jen and I were chatting a little bit before you joined – exactly that. It's looking beyond the turbines and the solar panels to what happens, and I know everyone on the call was viciously agreeing with, with the Plymouth example. Um…

Jen: Viciously agreeing?

Fraser: Um, but Plymouth… Vicious, violently? Sorry, was that a spoonerism? Almost. Violently agreeing, violently agreeing, or something less confrontational, but very glad to hear Plymouth come up. And I, I think another tidbit about Plymouth is through the, the energy crisis, PEC – Plymouth Energy Community – became a critical social infrastructure, right?

I, I think the statistic was 11,000 households reached through the energy crisis with support joining them up to make sure that their bills were covered or they could get the, the additional measures that they needed, or any grants that they were, they were due. So at that point about thinking about community energy in the round and not just about “We own generation and we have a fund attached to it” – which is fine if that's what community opts to do – but I think, yeah, a really, really pertinent example. 

Jen: Yeah. I'm curious then in hearing what all three of you have just said, actually, the motivations coming from the local authority. It sounds like there's a couple of different motivations, and maybe the motivation is different or distinct, or are there particular objectives or goals that the local authorities are looking to achieve and that's what they're trying to enact here?

Ellie: Yeah. I think what's quite interesting about some of the examples that I've come across is that, so for example, in Plymouth, there was a real drive for kind of more cooperative development. Oldham is also a cooperative council. It'll be really interesting to see like across the Cooperative Councils Innovation Network, like which of those councils have kind of pursued this as an agenda.

So, context: in my previous work when I was at the Centre for Local Economic Strategies, I was predominantly working on local economic development. But the fact that this docks in so clearly to economic agendas, which are much more about wellbeing and environmental goals and really thinking about the social, is really significant.

And when you have an area that has those priorities and is shaping its approach to economic development in that way, trying to look at this as an opportunity to address those deeper challenges, those sort of really pernicious issues in a place, and really looking at how you can use mechanisms like, you know, energy generation, but then thinking about it through, like, an economic democracy lens, is a really interesting way to start unpicking how you could use these things in a much more socially productive way.

So then it becomes not just a vehicle towards addressing kind of climate issues and, and environmental crisis and all of the things that we know that it will do. It is that broader social and economic kind of framework that a place might be working to, which I think is quite interesting and why I'm a massive nerd when it comes to going through, um, council policies.

Charlotte: I would agree with that, and I think that when local authorities have supported community energy in the area, I think there have been different reasons for different local authorities, which might change how they provide that support. So if they do have some sort of specific objectives, that can be where establishing the organisation and setting out its aims and ways it's gonna operate, sort of, might work better than actually working with the existing organisations, potentially.

But I think it really does, really does range. And I think one of the key sort of messages I think needs to drive two local authorities, is that, yes, community energy is a really good way of achieving area-wide decarbonisation. But actually, it's also a really good way of delivering on those wider objectives that Ellie was just sort of highlighting, around the economic objectives, the social objectives, and sort of just general wellbeing and social cohesion that you can develop through getting people excited about an idea and a project that's going on in their local area.

Fraser: So we've had some of the examples of where it's worked well. As a, someone who is involved in a community energy project, working with a local authority, but also through Net Zero Living, we hear a lot about some of the challenges of this, this relationship – some of which are unique to each organisation, some of them within the, the relationship itself. So Charlotte, I wanted to come to you first on this. What are some of those challenges in, in building that collaboration? 

Charlotte: I think probably one of the greatest challenges, is probably, within the local authorities themselves, is actually they don't have a huge amount of capacity at the moment to work on things which are outside of their core service areas. You know, the individuals are people with very, very long to-do lists and a very short amount of time to get things done. So again, I think that's where sort of really highlighting those wider benefits, particularly to senior decision makers can help to kind of try and prioritise resources to support community energy by sort of recognising those, those wide benefits.

‘Cause actually you can also, also find individuals on the ground who really do wanna support within the local authorities. But actually trying to get that kind of agency and remit, um, is really difficult and, and they really need everybody sort of shouting about why you wanna do it and why some local authorities are doing this to try and, and get that support for them to provide their time to it.

I think also it, it's sort of knowing what to do and how to provide that support within the constraints of your sort of resource available. So that was one of the reasons why we thought about developing this insights piece, is to try and sort of set out how you might go about sort of developing a support programme.

And so to do that we set out sort some background information about community energy and, and we identified what we thought sort of the key ingredients for a community energy project's success are, so in terms of sort of appetite, project management, community engagement – half a dozen or so, different factors that you sort of want in order to succeed with a community energy project. And then we also looked at all of the case studies and identified typical roles that the local authority might provide. So ranging from sort of promotion and knowledge sharing, right up to that partnership working that we were talking about earlier. 

And I think we have sort of highlighted some of the really strong examples where a lot of resource has been put into supporting community energy. But what we've tried to do within our support pack is say, look, “Even if you haven't got a huge amount of time, consider how you might develop some of these roles to suit the resource that you do have available”.

So when it comes to like promotion and knowledge sharing, okay, perhaps if you haven't got a huge amount of resource, do some signposting to other organisations who are operating nationally or in your local area that you know about that you can direct people to. So whether that's directing householders for energy efficiency advice or whether that's for community energy organisations themselves, to sort of some of the community energy sector organisations like Community Energy England, or Community Energy Wales or so forth. I think that can really help. And then if you've got more resource, then do a bit more, you know, put some peer-to-peer, um, knowledge sharing events on, you know, really spend time getting to know your community organisations that are working in your area.

And sort of where they aren't already working in the energy space,  try and sort of tailor your message to them and explain why they might be interested in getting involved in community energy and how that might deliver on some of their, their other objectives. I should say that a key thing within the sort of process guidance of trying to develop that support, we have highlighted sort of stakeholder engagement, and there’ll be all manner of stakeholders that need to be engaged with, but obviously the strongest one will be the community organisations and and the local community members, to see what they think they need. But again, it's just that reality check, I suppose, in terms of what you can do with the time available and trying to make sure it's as useful as possible.

Jen: So is this part of the evidence creation as well, Charlotte? So is the evidence out there clearly about these co-benefits that can be supported? And is that what the Net Zero Living Programme is looking to do, as well as provide that kind of direction to liberal authorities, to community groups, but also that evidence piece?

Charlotte: So, as I say, with the sort of background information pack, to be honest, we, we haven't questioned, we have not questioned whether community energy, um, achieves all those benefits. We think it does. And I, I think that to be fair, the community energy sector bodies have done a really good job with the Community Energy State of the Sector report.

Um, and I must admit, we rely very heavily in that document with the facts and figures that they have gathered, and it's fantastic and it, it's great that they're sort of monitoring the impact that the sector is having on local people in terms of economic investment, skills, volunteering, that sort of engagement message.

I think that's another thing that we've put in with the support programme, is I think once the local authorities have initiated that support programme, they should be going for feedback. They should be checking that the support they're providing actually is beneficial to the sector and is actually achieving what they wanted to achieve.

Because if it's not, you know, try and gather that feedback and, and adapt it as you can. I mean, another role as well that we've identified for the local authority is one of advocacy. And I think that's another thing where if they're working with community energy organisations and trying to enter into a two-way communication with those organisations and the individuals within their communities, to understand sort of where they're at with respect to energy use and understanding of sort of climate change, et cetera, it’s just to know, again, what support do they need?

And if the local authority can't provide it directly, can they be advocating to national government to support with that? Because I think that, again, to be honest, is where the local authorities probably have a stronger voice than the individual community energy organisation would do.

Jen: But I think that's a really important highlight, that the roles and that relationship might change through time, through that providing feedback, and it's not just the support mechanism and the roles initially – that will change. And yeah, I think that's a really important point to highlight. Ellie is there anything you wanted to add in there around the challenges of this collaboration between community groups and local authorities, and perhaps where collaborations get really fraught?

Ellie: Hmm. Yeah. Happy to. I completely agree with everything that Charlotte just said, particularly the challenges that councils are facing at the moment in terms of what they are able to deliver, regardless of kind of intent, is really quite stark, and has come through a lot definitely in the work that I've done.

I think another thing to mention in terms of even prior to like a, a proper partnership forming, but one of the things that we've seen, even within councils where there is like clear intent and there's a lot of enthusiasm for partnership, working with community energy organisations, is that fundamentally, actually there's a, there's a kind of a lack of knowledge or understanding across the board within councils as to what energy transition is and what the potential is of something like this.

So you'll have some people who are really, really bought in, but if it's not a high-level agenda that's being led at, at the high levels of the council, there's a, there's a gap there between sort of intent and the actual ability to engage with that agenda and with community energy organisations with a, with a level of understanding that makes those partnerships really constructive, basically.

When it comes to the challenges around collaboration, there's a lot of different factors at play. It could be that there are just a series of events that lead to misunderstandings and then there's friction, and then it's really hard to overcome that. And I think that where you've got people who are really invested in making something happen, particularly if it's something that's been born on the ground and they're really trying to make it through and you know, build something, it can come across as combative sometimes with local authorities.

And on the other side, if you've got something that's being created and, and with impetus from a local authority perspective, it can feel very top-down. And there are instances where there have been kind of local authorities who've been like, “We really want a cooperative that does this thing”.

It's like, well, you can't tell those people to cooperate! Like you can't force them to do anything. So like you might want that to happen, you might think it's needed, but a cooperative is a group of people who've decided there's a need and they've come together and they're trying to make it happen. So if the council has the ability to invest in, like Charlotte was saying, you know, invest in the activity, like really thinking about how they can use their resource to foster it and enable it and like work together collaboratively, that will generally breed the best outcome.

But the problem is when you've got stuff on both ends and a, a kind of gap in the middle, it becomes challenging, and particularly if it starts off that way, trying to bridge it over time with a, with a preexisting potential gap in trust, it, it becomes harder to unpick. Um, not impossible, but just a challenge and it needs to be acknowledged as something that needs to be worked through to, to make that partnership function well.

Jen: What I'm really excited to hear about there is that actually when there is a sort of lack of that relationship or you've got that, that, that, that distance between us, that that can actually be fostered. And I think those positive stories might also then be – perhaps our listeners or the, the wider community beyond our listenership – also, think of what else could could happen if these relationships are rebuilt.

And I guess I'm, I'm interested here, I'm going in a slightly different direction. When you are coming together, there's history on both sides and there's history of non-delivery, particularly in a, the sort of context that our local authorities are currently within.

And I'm very interested in how that relationship could be fostered and nurtured and the skills within the local authority to support that and the skills within the community groups as well to support that. That was a very long-winded way of me asking a question of like, what's needed to try and restore those relationships, and is that an aspect of the capacity building as well, that community energy or other types of partnerships could begin to restore?

Ellie: I think something that is often overlooked when we're thinking about this, well, approaches in general, which are about bridging gaps and kind of a distrust in institutions more broadly, is the role of essentially trusted intermediaries, trusted people within communities.

And I think that when we're talking about community energy and how community energy can be developed, you know, community is the centre of that. Which community is a different question, but I think that it's important to consider. You know, in Oldham at the moment, what we're doing is we're trying to develop a community partnership, which is gonna act as essentially a group of people who can advocate for the interests of communities from across Oldham and support the development of projects coming out of what we're describing as a community-led energy planning process to the council when it's thinking about energy transition as a whole and activity across the borough.

And critical to that partnership is gonna be working alongside both the council in terms of their district teams and, and the people who they have working directly with communities, but in a, you know, in a kind of council capacity, thinking about district plans, engagement consultations, that sort of thing. And then also critical organisations like the local VCS around basically connecting to local, trusted community organisations.

So that's a really critical pathway – basically figuring out how you can really link with people who are trusted, and that is a route to building trust back, essentially. But those groups have to be willing to work with you and need to see that they're not just being used for tokenism, that this is actually meaningful.

And I think a lot of the time those groups as well feel that the way that they've been involved in things in the past is tokenistic. So they need to see that this is meaningful and that they stand to benefit and that communities stand to benefit, and that there needs to be real intent rather than it just being a sense of agency. It needs to be actual agency, actual control, actual connection, actual ownership. 

Fraser: Charlotte, it feels like this spins quite neatly into your point around the ingredients, around appetite, around kind of the, the relationship building, right? 

Charlotte: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, although I think especially what Ellie was saying there around, yeah, it being genuine collaboration, is a really key point. I think what we keep on going back to is sort of educating both sides on what they're trying to achieve. I think this is where sometimes when relationships get broken down, then there are extreme views of what we think the other side was trying to do. You know what happens when anyone sort of falls out – it, sort of have that misunderstanding.

So I think sort of coming back together and, and trying to, to understand the aims of both organisations and being quite transparent and clear about that, to check to see whether collaboration is going to work. You know, are you looking to achieve the same things or complimentary things and how can that sort of be mutually beneficial?

But yeah, in terms of those sort of key ingredients, this is where it'd be interesting see if others agree with them, I’ll have to see if I can remember them off the top my head. But we had sort of appetite, project management, community engagement, expert advice and opportunity. You know, there has to be something that you can work on. Uh, funding, because that's generally needed. And delivery resource, to actually get it moving. Governance – and governance. Good governance. There are community projects that have fallen apart because those within the community group have fallen out with one another and haven't sort of had robust governance arrangements in place for decision-making and all of that sort of thing.

So those were those ingredients that we identified. And a lot of community energy organisations can probably tick all of them off already, but there might be some where they're sort of struggling a bit to, to meet it, and it could be sort of, that's where the local authority might be able to help them develop. So for example, an easy one would be the opportunity – you know, and there are countless examples of local authorities who have provided public sector building roof space to community energy organisations to develop solar PV on, and sell the electricity.

I think that's a very sort of simple, to be honest, and straightforward one, for the local authority to engage in. It still requires resource, it still requires commitment and it still requires decision makers to, to agree that it's, it's worth doing and it's gonna deliver benefits. But that's sort of one of the examples that we've sort of looked at, with us saying, okay, “If we've got this, this sort of list of ingredients, what can a local authority do to help, help tick them off?”

Jen: Do you think that list of ingredients is unique to community energy, Charlotte, or do you think this list of ingredients could be for other types of initiatives around partnering, collaboration work? 'Cause electoral authorities need their community groups and vice-versa. So do you think it goes beyond community energy or is there something unique and specific about community energy here?

Charlotte: I think there's something unique about community energy here, to be honest. I, well, I think, I think a lot of those ingredients are what you need for any energy project to go forward, let's be honest. But I, I think in terms of sort of going back to the community, you can say, “Oh, I want community energy in this area as a local authority, and so we're gonna provide all this support”. If the community don't want community energy in that area again, a bit like Ellie was saying earlier, its not going to happen – so that's that appetite piece.

So actually, if there isn't appetite in the community there's still something a local authority can do. If we think that there's benefits that can come from community energy, well then perhaps that support provision in that area is actually engaging with the community and saying, “Are you, you sure you don't wanna get involved in a community energy project?

It's actually very cool. It can lead to all these benefits”. Um, you know, and if you do find a strong community group, whether that's a parish council even, and talking to them, what they be doing with some, their assets, you can start to sort of highlight actually, you might have the appetite for community energy if you can see what it's gonna bring.

Jen: Yeah, that sounds really cool and really interesting that actually you got the, uh, the recognition that the absence of an ingredient isn't a showstopper. It just means that the role on both parts is slightly different. And so yeah, as you say, if you don't have the appetite, then you've got to support and create and nurture that appetite, because of the co-benefits that this could could bring to that community. 

Fraser: Glad to see this unfold. I think it's a, a really interesting, uh, part of the conversation. I did want to pivot slightly because we've talked a lot about the relationship, the opportunity, broadly defined. Um, but something that we hear and some of us have, have advocated for, is that this partnership delivery of, of decarbonisation at the local level presents, uh, substantial opportunities for a just transition, a fairer, a more inclusive, uh, arguably more prosperous transition for, for people and communities.

So, Ellie, I wanted to get your perspective here. How can this partnership be leveraged, uh, to those ends? 

Ellie: That's a really big question, so I'll, I'll do what I can to answer it to some degree. Yeah, it, it's a huge opportunity to think about things in a more holistic way and, and really think about kind of energy democracy and energy justice.

And I would say that if we're thinking about partnerships between the public sector and communities, there's not only opportunities to make sure that investment is held and leveraged in a way that stands to benefit not just local economies, but like regional, national economies. Like when you look at examples like Norway, the Government Pension Fund Global and, and the way that they've made the most of, admittedly not a good fuel source now, um, but North Sea oil and gas, like, we missed a massive opportunity with that.

And I think that those opportunities to really leverage the, the type of money that can be generated by, you know, renewables at all scales is huge in terms of, yeah, that opportunity. So in terms of how we can leverage that at a local level, I would say that if we're thinking about energy justice, the connection between local authorities and community energy organisations gives us an opportunity to both look at what the priorities are for an area when it comes to local authority, kind of priorities around things like fuel poverty or jobs or, you know, business development.

Ellie: And really integrating those to the way that we're thinking about energy transition in general, but also the just embodied knowledge that sits within communities, as to how these things should happen and what is a priority and who should be prioritised, is often missed. So bringing those two together can mean that we really take an approach to delivering a transition that meets the needs of people, and can support the ambitions of places together. I would say that by taking this partnership approach as well, there's an opportunity to focus activity in areas that maybe need a bit of a, a boost to get started and maybe, you know, for people in lower-income areas might just need a bit of support or like a bit of funding that can be pushed in by the local authority that can really support that to happen.

I would say as well, quite an interesting example that I always have in the back of my mind, actually – you know, when you just have these kind of latent things that are floating about – um, there's an example from Eeklo, in Belgium. It's not specifically community energy, but there's an example where the local government own shares in, in a local wind farms, they, they kind of hold local energy as opposed to community energy, and they basically used those shares to develop pre-financed shares in this wind farm, that they then prioritised for people in energy poverty, which enabled people to join the cooperative and reduce their energy bills as a result.

So thinking in those terms about how you can use different mechanisms to really focus attention on how to, like, deliver energy justice is one way that we can think about this. I could go on forever, but I'll, I'll stop now. 

Fraser: And Charlotte, same question. 

Charlotte: I think I'd just build on what Ellie said there. I think that that was an amazing example. And I think it's what we were talking about earlier of that two-way communication. Because there are huge benefits that can come from the energy transition, but people aren't going to have access to them if they aren't aware of them and aren't being educated on it. Similarly, unless you know what people need and how their relationship with energy is, and in terms of not just sort of how we use energy, but how we're managing energy, you need to know what they need, or how their relationship with energy, is in order to help identify ways in which this can be improved.

So I think it is that two-way sort of communication and then thinking outside the box, like Ellie just identified with her example in Belgium of like, how can we use this transition to ensure these benefits could arise? And I think that example with the shares is, is brilliant because I think that's one of the, you know, it is a great thing of community energy that it provides opportunities for local people to invest.

But obviously if you haven't got the money to invest, you are locked out of that opportunity. So actually, how can we democratise it further and enable more people to take a stake in, in projects that come forward? 

Jen: I think what I really enjoyed about that example as well is that it's kind of that community energy isn't the only option or the only solution. There's all these nested options, and what suits one community or set of communities doesn't suit another. And perhaps by investing in a local energy-type system, then you then unlock the resource that you need to then have the community energy. So I see this as being quite interconnected. A lot of what you just said and, and, and shared, Ellie, relates very strongly with community wealth-building and the community wealth-building agenda.

So really, is there opportunity here to go beyond just transition and into that, you know, ambitious transformation of, of wealth and what wealth means within communities?

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah, a thousand percent. Um, I love talking about this, so I think community wealth-building – it sounds really basic, but it's about wealth. It, how wealth flows, where it goes, who, who benefits from it. And if we're thinking about where that wealth comes from and, and flows as a result of the energy transition, we're thinking about infrastructure a lot of the time, and who owns it, and how circuits of wealth are created from it, is the centre of that question.

But I think what's really interesting is that a lot of the time at the moment anyway, definitely in, in Scotland, a lot of the discussion has been around kind of community benefits and how we get community benefits for communities as a result of renewables and, and all that sort of stuff – and social value in our case in, in England.

But we need to be more ambitious than that. And I think community energy is, is one form of that ambition. But what I saw through some work that I did previously for the Scottish Land Commission, which was one of my favourite pieces of work that I've been fortunate to do, was the fact that once you have a community energy project, or if you have an asset that's in community ownership, you have the opportunity to create circuits of wealth in a place, and really think about how you can use the wealth that's generated through these projects to invest in further democratic ownership.

And with community wealth-building, democratic ownership is the core. You know, you might start with procurement or, you know, think about, um, employment, but democratic ownership is the goal. So community energy is a really exciting route for that. And there are examples of that in Scotland already. You know, Huntley Development Trust is one example, and I would say that internationally as well, there were really exciting examples in Denmark, as you'd expect, and in Germany, but one in particular in Denmark was around a community that decided that they wanted to develop their own energy project. They’d opposed previous ones, they, they kind of live in a harbour – it’s called Hvide Sande – and basically they were like, “We need a fund to redevelop the harbour.

Let's develop a a community energy project. Then we'll create a community trust that holds the profits. And then we'll use that for basically a rural economic development fund. And we'll use that to kind of regenerate the harbour and create jobs”. So thinking creatively about what the potential is, but all, you know, on the predication that it’s within community or public ownership is where the opportunity is. It's, it's massive.

So yeah, it's really exciting because I think that there is a frontier at the moment that we're at. It's sort of like a bit of a pivot point. So I'm hoping that we'll end up on the good side of the pivot. But yeah, there's a lot of potential in it, I think, to take it further. And I think just, a lot of the time exposing people to the ideas that are coming from elsewhere and that exist internationally is half of that. And then figuring out how to break or find the loopholes in the system is another part. 

Jen: That sounds like a perfect time to end our conversation, although I know that there'll be so much more that we could delve into, all of those examples.

Fraser: And I think, Ellie, if you're free this time next week, let's do the community wealth-building episode next.

Jen: Wow, Fraser, what a discussion. It really felt like the very end they we were almost moving onto a whole new episode about community wealth building and community energy. And so I'd just say like, watch this space. I think we'll have to put something together, particularly thinking about the Local Power Plan announcements and how that's getting developed. So I, I reckon we've got ourselves a, a future episode.

For now, thank you so much for listening to Local Zero. If you enjoy what we do, we'd love it if you could help us bring Local Zero to more people. Our best marketing tool really is the simple word of mouth, so please tell a friend about the podcast.

Fraser: You can also help, if you listen on Apple Podcasts, by leaving a review. And if you're on Spotify, uh, you can leave your feedback directly on this episode, which is very handy. 

Jen: Yeah, and if there's an issue, an initiative, or a question you think we should cover, then drop us a line at localzeropod@gmail.com or over on LinkedIn. And don't forget, as we said at the start, that longtime listeners will be familiar with topics around community and local energy. We've covered this on other episodes since the beginning of Local Zero pod, and we'll list those in the shownotes so they're easy to find for you. 

Fraser: But until next time, bye-bye.

Jen: Bye.