53: COP26 and Glasgow: one year on

A year since Glasgow hosted COP26, the team reflect on the event's legacy for the city, and particularly for Strathclyde University. Matt, Becky and Fraser are joined by Dr Roddy Yarr, Strathclyde's Executive Lead for Sustainability, and Manish Joshi, CEO of the Students Union.

Essential Reading:

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129947

https://spice-spotlight.scot/2022/11/03/cop26-what-happened-next/

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Rebecca:  Welcome to Local Zero with Becky, Matt and Fraser.  

[Music flourish] 

Today’s episode is all about the United Nations Climate Change Conference, looking forward to COP27 coming up in Sharm el-Sheikh and looking back on the legacy of last year’s COP26 right here in Glasgow. 

Matt:  We’ll be hearing shortly from Dr Roddy Yarr, Strathclyde University’s Executive Lead on Sustainability. Also joining us will be Manish Joshi, CEO of Strathclyde’s Students’ Union. 

[Music flourish] 

Fraser:  Before that though, a quick plea from us to do a couple of things that are completely free for you but that help us out a really, really big deal. If you can, please subscribe to Local Zero so all of our latest episodes are automatically delivered to your phone or device on whichever platform it is you prefer to use. You’ll among the first to get to listen and also we’d love you to get in touch and tell us how we’re doing. We’re @LocalZeroPod on Twitter or on email at LocalZeroPod@gmail.com. 

[Music flourish] 

Rebecca:  But before we get into it, just a quick apology to listeners. If you’re hearing me and I sound a little bit different, I lost the connector that plugs my microphone into my computer, so, hopefully, I don’t sound too weird [laughter]. It’s an exciting episode today, isn’t it? I actually can’t believe that COP26 was a year ago. It simultaneously feels like it was forever ago and only a few weeks ago. 

Matt:  Yeah, it actually feels likes this is the first time we’re able to really truly reflect on what happened. I know we’ve attempted to do this in the past but it turns out, it takes a year to have a bit of perspective on these things. 

Fraser:  Yeah, apparently so. I was disappointed when I heard about COP27 actually. I thought we’d fixed it. I thought we did everything last year but apparently not. 

Rebecca:  Reflecting back on some of the things that happened, to me, they feel like they were a very long time ago because they’re just so far in history but at the same time, it feels like it’s taken me this long to actually really recover and look back properly... just in time to look forward to the next COP [laughter]. 

Matt:  It just takes a year to recover, yeah. Fraser, you had a very busy time and you were sharing platforms with Greta Thunberg and others. A year on, can you still believe it happened? [Laughter] 

Fraser:  No [laughter]. 

Matt:  Does it feel real? 

Fraser:  No, it feels like a collective fever dream at this point. I think Becky’s right; the concept of time since it’s passed is just nothing and I feel like because it’s such a big part of our work as well... if you’re working in the climate space, you kind of don’t stop working on these things, so it never really winds down. I was really disappointed, Matt, to be honest, when I heard we were having a COP27. I thought we fixed it all last year.  

Matt:  Yeah, I agree. 

Fraser:  I was really disappointed. 

Matt:  You thought it was the end of the trilogy [laughter]. No, agreed. What occurred to me is that the good people at the Carbon Brief, for instance, and all the other COP-focused individuals, whether it’s the UN, BEIS, or Climate Change Committee, bouncing from one COP to the next is just relentless. You’re always either preparing for one but then after that, then you’re making sense of what’s just been and then there’s a handover. In our last episode, and a shameless plug, we were speaking to Professor Jim Skea and he thankfully made sense of this. He said that not all COPs are equal. Some COPS are more COP-y than others. He said COP26 was a really big one, Paris was a big one and Copenhagen was a big one. Sharm el-Sheikh maybe not as... I don’t want to say important but not as major as COP26 but still some really big issues to iron out. 

Rebecca:  I think it’s really important to reflect on the fact that we have these bigger COPS but actually, as you say, Matt, just because we made some headway and we agreed the Glasgow Climate Pact at COP26 last year, it doesn’t mean that action stops. In fact, reflecting back... I think it was almost a year ago to the day that we recorded our debrief on COP, or just under a year ago when we were asking where are we and what do all the commitments that have been made add up to. They don’t get us to where we need to be. So all of the commitments that have been made don’t take us to a 1.50 temperature rise and we have to see ongoing ambition year on year now. 

Matt:  I was surprised to read, in preparation for this COP27, that some of the things which were agreed at COP26 haven’t been executed. Sorry, I’m not surprised by that but actually, I was still kind of surprised by some of the facts. For instance, one of the agreements from COP26 is that countries would come back with national carbon plans and targets and only about 23 of the 193 countries and a fraction or maybe an eighth of these countries have actually delivered these so far. We’re days away, as we record this or a week or so, and many of them haven’t done their homework yet, so that’s concerning.

There are also questions about whether countries, including the UK actually in the news this week, have been forthcoming with their respective climate finance packages, particularly for developing countries. I know, Fraser, you’ve spoken about this in the past about loss and damage for those developing countries which haven’t maybe enjoyed the fruits of decades of industrialisation and developed economies in the way that the West has and yet are feeling all the negative impacts and some of the very worse negative impacts of climate change. These are kind of perennial issues that are rolling through these COPs but actually, some of the things that were agreed upon at COP26 haven’t actually been done yet. 

Rebecca:  Haven’t been done and haven’t been translated into national strategies that are strong enough and I’m particularly thinking about our own. I can see Fraser desperately wants to join in this conversation and is terrified to come off mute because his dog is playing with a squeaky toy in the background [laughter]. 

Fraser:  He’s squeaking a toy in the background just as Matt teed me up there. I was wound up. I was ready to go [laughter] and then he comes through and starts squeaking [laughter] the loudest possible squeaky toy. 

Matt:  Yeah, he’s more annoyed than you are, Fraser [laughter]. 

Fraser:  He’s furious. He’s absolutely furious. I think this is a key point. I think it’s incredibly important and people who are seasoned COP veterans will have been making this argument and feeling this frustration for a long time. What’s also happened in that time is we’ve had the energy crisis ramp up. So when we were making the arguments at COP about climate justice, social justice and trying to spotlight that this isn’t just the biggest issue that we face on the planet today, although it is...it’s not just the biggest environmental issue but it’s the biggest social issue. It’s the biggest economic issue and that’s never been more obvious than it has before and yet we’re still not acting in any capacity on any side... 

[Sound of squeaky toy] 

Matt:  [Laughter] You can hear the squeak. 

Fraser:  Yeah, just completely undermining this massive firebrand speech that I’m giving. 

Matt:  Furious. He’s giving it hell. 

Fraser:  Hold on... it has been wrestled from him [laughter]. I’m not going to retake that point. I think this is important. Not only are we sort of trundling from one COP to the next blindly and not doing the things that we said we were going to do but we also have this much bigger issue as we’re concerned, at least, in the UK and bearing in mind that COP is global. We have this issue that makes the need for action for a just transition to net zero obvious at every possible level, from your household bill to saving the planet and to global inequalities. There is no counterargument really for not doing that at this point in time and we’re still just not at the scale and pace that we need to be.

So it’s frustrating; however, knowing that we understand those things and that the... anger is the wrong word but the emboldenment of people in this space and the wider public understanding is something to take heart in. I think it’s how we now capitalise on that. 

Matt:  Now, of course, there has been one major, major change since COP26 and that’s been Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine. I’ve often thought about what this means for countries’ climate change plans and for international climate negotiations. I think it remains to be seen what comes out of Egypt. On the one hand, many countries are feeling the pinch and that’s a very, very soft way of putting it but rampant inflation, escalating interest rates and capital reserves from companies to householders being diminished by the hour and so you are seeing, essentially, less financial firepower to be able to decarbonise.

On the other hand, you’ve seen countries move with gusto away from gas, whether that’s - less so in the UK but certainly in the European Union – reducing energy demand with their target of 15% reduction but also moving away from gas and relying on other forms of electricity generation and in particular, renewables, nuclear and unfortunately, in some circumstances, other dirty thermal like coal. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out. Will you see countries wake up and say, ‘Look, gas is not just bad for the climate but actually, we can’t rely on this for geopolitical reasons. Let’s get off it once and for all.’ 

Rebecca:  What I wonder as well is if we’re going to see that same sort of thinking not just at national levels but also at local levels or communities levels. I know, Matt, you’ve just come back from a week away by Loch Ness. You’ve been looking at some of these frustrations or maybe enhanced focus because we’re now seeing climate being brought much more into our everyday lives through the energy crisis and through the cost of living crisis. How is that playing out? 

Matt:  A very quick note on this. We’ve done a couple of episodes in the past on what we were kind of terming green-leds and the great carbon landrush where you’ve got companies, high net-worth individuals and also trusts and charities hoovering up land in the Highlands of Scotland. Coming back to COP26, this was really pronounced in the lead-up to COP26 where you had companies wanting to demonstrate that they were ‘net zero’ or were offsetting their emissions.

So we went up to Loch Ness to actually meet some of these organisations which have purchased land and are looking to rewild that land and also sequester carbon but crucially, to understand how communities are being impacted there. It’s a new market that is opening up because of these climate negotiations and climate action and so communities really are feeling change; some of it positive and some of it negative. All will be revealed in due course. We’ll have pods on this. Yeah, so we went up there to see that. I didn’t see the monster, sadly. I did spend a long time looking for it but whilst I was up there enjoying myself in the Highland glens. Becky, you were on The One Show, I believe. 

Rebecca:  Yes, I was. It was really exciting. It was a great episode of The One Show and I have to say that my role was rather small but the focus... and to see The One Show hosting Greta Thunberg on the sofa and getting out also into the rainforest in Scotland. I didn’t know there was a rainforest in Scotland. It was looking at what was happening on the ground and with communities. To see that live on such a popular show as The One Show, a mainstream show, I think that was so exciting. 

Matt:  Well, congratulations on being there. Did you get to sit on the actual sofa? 

Rebecca:  No, no. I met the team in Glasgow just on the river overlooking the SEC (Scottish Event Campus) where COP was which really brought it fully back into focus for me. It’s been hideous weather in Glasgow for weeks now but amazingly, we got the most lovely day with no wind and a bit of sunshine and it was lovely. 

Matt:  Good stuff and we should probably bring our guests in, who were also present with us at COP26, Roddy and Manish, and who will also have a lot to reflect on and hopefully share some good memories. 

[Music flourish] 

Manish:  Hi, I’m Manish Joshi, Chief Executive of Strathclyde Students’ Union. 

Roddy:  Hello, my name is Roddy Yarr and I’m the Executive Lead for Sustainability at the University of Strathclyde. 

[Music flourish] 

Rebecca:  Thank you so much, Roddy and Manish, for joining us today. We’re really, really excited to have you with us. As you know, in this episode, we’re really wanting to look back and reflect on COP26. It’s November time and I can’t actually believe it was a whole year ago that COP26 happened in Glasgow and thousands of people descended onto the city. What we really want to think about today is that kind of legacy that’s occurred, the impacts that it’s had on the city and, of course, on folk that are living and that are part of this thriving city and also look forward to COP27.

But before we dive in about this, I think it would be really helpful to understand the journey that Glasgow, as a city, and Strathclyde, as a university and a massive part of that city, have been on up to that point because, of course, COP26 wasn’t the beginning for us. So I’m just wondering if maybe you can both help me reflect on how important climate action has been for Glasgow in the years leading up to COP26 and maybe, Roddy, you can kick us off with that broader city perspective and then we can start to focus in on the university. 

Roddy:  Sure. Yeah, I think Glasgow has been doing a huge amount of work to pull together all the policy and guidance work pre-COP. That work, post-COP, has accelerated but you’ll be familiar with the Climate Plan that the city council pulled together and which we were involved in through Sustainable Glasgow in our work trying to help the city and help our own net-zero targets to move forward. I think you’re right in that there has been a huge amount of work done pre-COP but, of course, all of that work has now got to be delivered and I think that’s where the council is really working hard with others, including ourselves, to try and move the whole agenda forward quickly. Whether that’s happening or not is another question. 

Rebecca:  Before we dig into the city, a lot of people won’t be familiar with Glasgow’s Climate Plan, so maybe you could just give us a bit of an overview of what that is. 

Roddy:  I think the Climate Plan has got 61-odd targets within in and millions to cover all of the different sustainability aspects that are necessarily important and need to be delivered. So it’s bringing together all that policy piece, as I said, into one coherent document covering transport, energy, access to services around sustainability, infrastructure and all of those elements. I think that’s pulled together now in this Climate Plan. That’s really where we’re trying to help work with the city. 

Matt:  Right, and that’s with a view, Roddy, to Glasgow becoming net zero by 2030? 

Roddy:  Yeah, so net zero by 2030 but since COP, it’s also now a climate city... so climate resilience. With the language of net zero... we can go down a rabbit hole here with this one but some people think it’s part of net zero and some people say that net zero hasn’t anything to do with climate resilience. So there’s a narrative around making sure that the city, region and its stakeholders think about resilience because obviously, climate change is here and locked in. There’s a huge amount of work going on with that. 

Matt:  And, of course, we’re on the Clyde which, as sea level rises, is a tidal river too and so I can imagine Glasgow needing to be resilient into the future. Manish, I know you were extremely busy during COP26 and the phone was ringing off the hook. In fact, you were visited by none other than the former president, Obama. In the lead-up to COP26, could you give a bit of background around the importance of sustainability and climate in the context of the Students’ Union but also from your perspective of the university? 

Manish:  The biggest challenge we had in the lead-up to COP26 was that the Students’ Union wasn’t open and so we were living in the pandemic. We closed our doors on 17th March 2021 and because we were moving into a new building in the Learning & Teaching Building, there was actually no physical presence. Obviously, students weren’t back on campus in any shape or form. I think one of the biggest challenges, therefore, in the run-up to that was student activism around that and student organising around that, certainly in terms of our campus.

In the run-up to that, students had been really active. We had campaigned and worked with the university around divestment in terms of fossil fuels and the university’s investment portfolio and that’s an ongoing conversation around what more we can do there to really make sure that we’re a net-positive contributor with the assets that the university has, where funds are invested and how we do that. So there had actually been a good head of steam from the student body around that.

We then had Covid and the impacts that had on students, student life and society as a whole and in the background, COP was going on and the organising was happening. We were fairly well-engaged on the civil society front through the likes of Stop Climate Chaos Scotland and others and working closely with the university. That conversation, I think, at university had probably started 18 months to two years prior to COP. 

Matt:  Manish, did that take a little bit of the wind out of the sails of students in terms of organising around COP26 and climate action in the fact that we were locked down for 18 months in the lead-up to COP26? But actually, in the year since COP26, Omicron aside and various restrictions there, it’s really been much, much less restrictive over the last year. Was it a bit chalk and cheese for you? Has it been quite different or did climate action kind of bubble up in different ways with the union in the lead-up to COP26? 

Manish:  We have a Climate Emergency Action Group which was set up prior to COP and has continued and is fully active and vibrant in that respect. We have worked really closely with the Centre for Sustainable Development and Sustainable Strathclyde and we’re about to open a Sustainability Hub on the campus. That would definitely be a legacy, for me, from COP in the fact that sustainability and climate change have really elevated in terms of the university’s outlook and the union’s outlook. There’s definitely action. Actually, I think one of the main things is the action is much more coordinated at a university and union level, so those conversations are strategic now as opposed to having a group of students campaigning the university to try and move. The university is fully committed and on board with this and in many ways, often driving elements of that conversation.

To give some perspective, I think it’s just been really hard for students. Our intake right now was born in 2004. Climate change is just part of their life. It’s just a constant drumbeat that they’ve grown up with in amongst a housing crisis, inequality crisis and getting back to university. Do they have the time and the headspace even sometimes in amongst everything else that they’re working towards? I think there is a group of committed students here on the campus and I think there are a lot of students who care about climate change but I also think who are just so overwhelmed with life and just trying to get through university that they’re maybe just not there in terms of showing up for a rally or a demonstration.

So I think we need to find different ways for people to engage and I think we’re doing some of that. There are going to be credit-bearing courses coming onstream, so you can actually be committed to doing something on climate. We’re working on stuff around activism and helping support that. 60% of our students commute in and so how can we support them to actually be doing stuff locally where they live in Inverclyde, Kilmarnock and other parts in and around the West? I think there’s much more we can do on that. Finally, on that point, I think one of the big challenges with COP was the message to students was ‘Don’t come in. Don’t come to Glasgow. Don’t come to campus.’ So we put on what I think was a phenomenal programme working with the Lego Foundation and the guys from Lateral North, Fortnight, Napier University and we had all kinds of stuff happening and unfortunately, a lot of our students didn’t really get to actually engage with it because the message had been ‘We’re moving learning fully online over that COP period. It’s going to be lockdown in Glasgow. Don’t come in.’

I feel the people of Glasgow never really got a really good opportunity during COP to really showcase our hospitality and what we were capable of. I think that came alive in the middle weekend during the marches and some of the mobilisations, especially the youth march on the Friday and then the larger mobilisation. Yeah, I kind of feel like our students missed out a little bit on that opportunity to really engage with what was going on, especially in the union because... you’ve alluded we had Barak Obama come here but we also had people like Laurence Tubiana, one of the architects of the Paris Agreement, other heads of state and various other people as well as youth activists from around the world. I wish we were doing it now actually. I wish COP26 was this year in Glasgow. 

Matt:  Yeah, it was obviously a peculiar time. I mean I’m not defending it but just looking back, this was just before Omicron and there was this kind of expectation that Covid was going to be rampant. I remember it just tickering up as we were there and unfortunately, Becky, some of our colleagues had access to the Blue Zone and got Covid on Day One and were out of the game for two weeks but I hear what you’re saying, Manish, and you had one hell of a programme on. 

Rebecca:  Yeah, it was amazing and as you were just talking there, Manish, I was reflecting back and thinking just how different it is for a lot of students and younger people now compared to when I was at university. This just wasn’t really a part of university societies. There might have been small bits and pieces going on in the fringes but it just wasn’t as central as it seems to be nowadays.

I particularly look back on COP26 and some of the stuff that really stands out for me are those climate marches. I wasn’t there on the Saturday with the bigger climate march but I was around for the youth march. I wasn’t taking part because I was on crutches but I was standing there in George Square as everyone was rolling in and it was just the most amazing atmosphere. It felt like people had an opportunity to show what they stood for. I was talking to folk that were involved and hearing their passion around it. I’m just wondering how important some of those activities were for the students but also for other people that are really implemental in driving action; so really thinking about some of the other key organisations that the universities were interacting with and then a part of that broader Sustainable Glasgow initiative.

How important do you think all of that was in terms of trying to raise the ambition of what’s going on, galvanising action or in some cases, creating these forms of partnerships? Looking back on it, do you think it really started to bring people together in new ways? 

Roddy:  I think it did, yeah. I remember all of those marches. I remember Fraser on stage and Greta and I remember businesses worrying about COP and the anxiety around what was going to happen and thinking, ‘Do I need to put shutters up? Are there going to be riots?’ All of that essentially didn’t happen. There were some protests and I think that did raise the profile and if it did one thing, it absolutely... in my work, I can sense and I can see evidence that it actually did spur business, city and region stakeholders into thinking, ‘Yeah, this is okay to work on this now. It’s a norm now and this is a new thing that we have to embrace, adopt and tackle.’ It also became a really important risk area emphasised by the media and obviously all that’s happened since. So I think it has made a huge difference.

I still have to kind of temper that with the business-as-usual is back [laughter] and that has a real impact on how we move forward because it is business-as-usual. We’re seeking to go back to what the normality was pre-pandemic, however close to that we can get but actually, we need to do something completely different to that. I’m sure everyone on this call will perhaps reflect in a similar vein to that. It’s business-as-usual but just with a bit more kind of emphasis on sustainability. 

Fraser:  Yeah, I think so and I think that the point on partnerships and the point that you both raised, Roddy and Manish, is that a lot of this stuff now is more strategic. If we step back just a second, at the time, we talked a lot about two different sorts of COPs. We talked about the COP that was happening in the Blue Zone and the Green Zone at the higher level. We talked about the COP that was happening out on the streets and on the marches. I think, at the time, there was a lot of frustration about the city’s efforts to bring more people into the fold on this like when we think about the free bus travel, for instance, that the delegates had versus what citizens had. While appreciating, of course, the great legacy, the partnerships that have happened and this being more strategic, it feels like unless you’re in the climate space now, you’re not fully cognisant that COP27 is actually just days away realistically.

So, Manish, I wonder if you have any thoughts on whether we could have done more to galvanise that legacy amongst, let’s say, ‘ordinary people’ in the city or the people who were out on the streets because it wasn’t just the vegans, right? There were people from all corners of the city that were out there. Could we have done more to galvanise that and if maybe there’s anything that we can do now to try and reignite some of that spirit to drive the work that needs to be done, as Roddy says, to challenge business-as-usual? 

Manish:  Yeah, I think you’re spot on, Fraser. Previous to working in the Students’ Union, I actually used to work around the COP process on civil society engagement. I remember turning up at COP15 in Copenhagen in 2009 not realising that 15 years before, people had been doing these things since Rio in 1992 and this whole legacy... I think that starts right from teaching kids in school about these things. There’s a whole history here in amongst what you might learn. We’ve just finished Black History Month and my kids are coming home and telling me about Rosa Parks and things like that and it’s great. I’m really encouraged to hear that but I’d also like them to come and tell me, ‘Dad, do you know that summit that happened in Rio in 1992, it kicked off all these things?’ The person on the street doesn’t know about the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. Should they know about it? I don’t know.

I think what they need to know what our government is doing. All problems are local problems, aren’t they? So how can we bring this down to a granular level around what’s happening in your local area? What’s your council doing about it? What’s changing in your school? I still feel like we’re teaching our curriculum in a kind of post-industrial way. So for me, I think a lot of this needs to start with school kids and what we’re doing around that.

You made a point, Becky, earlier on just about that togetherness of people and community. I was at a gig last night and it was a spiritual experience almost. You’re with people and we’ve got to a stage, I think, in the last 15 or 20 years where we’re not very often with people and if we are, it’s at work or at school. I think we need to really build strong community networks and resilient community networks and connect people because then they’ll start to care. They’ll care about their neighbour. They’ll care about their parks and their local wetlands or whatever it is and then we’ll get community action. Folk will then go, ‘Aye, that feeds into that COP thing that happens and that politicians go to.’ But we have to be sending those politicians with a mandate as well and I feel, at the moment, we really don’t and it’s disconnected. Our politics and what’s happening in international fora, whether it’s the G7, G20 or COPs, are so disconnected from everyday people’s lives and so for me, it’s about getting back to that element of building community. 

Matt:  Did you, Manish and Roddy, sense in Glasgow at the time a sense of ownership around COP26 from the average citizen? I was right in the middle of it but occasionally, my head would kind of pop up over the parapet and I’d have these moments of self-reflection. I’d realise that actually, it felt like COP26 was something that was being done to Glasgow. It was almost like the circus kind of rolled into town and then rolled out. We’re kind of seeing the same thing in Sharm el-Sheikh this time around for COP27. I was picking up bits and pieces of conversations from folk saying, ‘I’m vaguely aware of COP26 but it’s because I’ve heard the bin strikes are on and they’re happening because of COP26.’ On the ground, did people care, did people understand what was happening and was there any sense of ownership around COP26 at the time? 

Roddy:  Well, I can reflect on what I saw. I think people expect high-profile meetings like this to take place and to sort things out in that sense and then actually make it real for people so there is change, to Manish’s point, at community level. I don’t think that’s happened to the scale it needs to. Given where we are, I would have thought that would have been an opportunity with the pandemic and the focus on health and wellbeing and politicians taking real, direct action to sort out a pandemic, to focus on that challenge and to tackle it coherently which is what happened. Investment was made, right or wrong, and there’s a whole complexity around who benefitted and so forth but ultimately, society benefitted from a focus or the mission approach.

Mariana Mazzucato was writ large in that pandemic and it was very much about health, wellbeing, community, people and keeping everyone safe but that hasn’t continued with the climate challenge which is still here and isn’t going to go away. I think that political link to community is missing but what a huge opportunity that would be if we pivot towards it and actually enable people to see that’s the framework that we’ve got and this is how it’s helping me with my access to services, my energy bill, my flood risk in my village or wherever I live. It’s because of that lot that came to Glasgow in 2021. 

Matt:  Manish, did you find any sense of ownership? Has COP26 resonated with people? Do friends, family and colleagues see the Glasgow Pact and have a bit of pride and think, ‘I own a bit of that. That was on my patch’? 

Manish:  I hate to be cynical here. I think the stories I hear are when people stayed with other people, people rented out their flats or they had people stay as part of the Human Hotel... back to connection. People are like, ‘Ah, it was really good last year because somebody stayed with me,’ or they went to an event. I think towards the end of COP, they did. I don’t think there’s any pride in the Glasgow Pact. I think the politics bypassed the people and I think the talks, obviously because they’re very technical, weren’t reported all that accurately in terms of the way the media reports on these things. They look for the headlines, right? Going into Sharm el-Sheikh, we’re overshooting 1.50 and so those are the headlines.

There were some amazing stories. We had a day in the union where we had Inuit in for World Inuit Day and it was such a powerful day and people came and told their stories. I don’t think the media locally did a great job of actually shining a light on all those stories that came to Glasgow and the indigenous people from around the world who came. I think it happened at some local levels. Some great stuff went on at the GalGael, the Centre for Alternative Technology and various other places like the Centre for Human Ecology but it was niche and it didn’t break through to the mainstream.

Roddy uses this great turn of phrase which has really stuck with me this year which is what is the purpose of higher education in a climate crisis? I think you can take that to what is the purpose of education? What is the purpose of community in the climate crisis? We’re not pivoting and there are no radical solutions coming forward. I don’t think the people of Glasgow are tuning into Sharm el-Sheikh going, ‘Oh yeah, now we’ve passed the baton on,’ like you might do even with, say, a Commonwealth Games or an Olympics or something. 

Rebecca:  There are so many interesting points in here but that comparison, Roddy, that you just said about the pandemic and creating community... I mean the pandemic was front and centre for everybody. It was front and centre of our lives for a variety of reasons but I remember once a week, everybody was standing in the street. My whole street was out and folk were clapping. Somebody from one of the homes up the street, and we didn’t actually know this neighbour, was out there playing musical instruments and there was a real sense that this was a key and important thing going on in all of our lives.

Coming back to this idea of there being two COPs, the talks that the politicians are having are very technical and we recorded an episode of Local Zero just after COP26 where we talked about some of the successes. Some of those successes were very, very technical successes that probably most people... I struggle to get my head around it working in this space and I expect that there is that kind of real challenge because it’s so technical, so specific and detailed. But where I feel there was an opportunity that perhaps was missed was that during COP, and not for everyone but a number of people, it was that same sort of front and centre in terms of that focus on climate being front and centre in the same way we’ve had the focus on the pandemic being front and centre. I agree, cynically or not... I talk to a lot of family and friends and some of them don’t know what COP is. It’s just not part of their life really. They do care about climate change though, they do care about their energy bills and they do care about a lot of the tangible things that I think are then what kind of trickle down from COP.

Just thinking about this and bringing it back to front and centre, it wasn’t just people. I saw it in organisations that were involved with people from different parts of the organisation and business that may not have, typically in their job, had climate as front and centre. During COP and the run-up to COP, it was, particularly for Glasgow businesses, and it feels like that’s kind of trickled away again. Roddy, thinking about some of the businesses in the city that are absolutely integral to the delivery of Glasgow’s climate ambitions, do you feel that that’s happened here? Do you feel like we’re kind of missing a trick? 

Roddy:  I don’t actually. I work with lots of different groups, public and private, and the private sector is more switched on to this every day. There’s no question of that because it’s on the risk register; stranded assets, resilience of assets and business continuity. Young people or old people who want to go and work for businesses that are aware of this issue, taking some action, respecting and understanding it... these are all the dynamics that I think are more at play now and are growing more and more every year. That is my sense which is really, really good [laughter]. That’s a positive, right? We haven’t ignored it and turned our back on it. I think it’s growing.

Again, are we doing enough? No, we’re not doing enough but it’s a good start. We’re at it and we’re on it. We want to know more. When I was bringing all the stakeholders that I work with and trying to match up our capabilities and the university’s sustainability response with the centre and academic faculties, that was full. There was overcapacity. People want to get into this space. They want to take action and so I think it’s going in the right direction, absolutely, in the private sector and, of course, the public sector too. 

Manish:  I would totally agree with Roddy’s points there. I sit on the board of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations and I just want to say I think there’s a real desire in the third sector but I think the big challenge for small SMEs and probably the third sector is access to resources, expertise and being able to put these solutions out. I was just going to make the point that I think, a little bit like the climate negotiations, there’s almost a duty of care and responsibility around knowledge exchange, knowledge transfers and being able to support smaller organisations to get there quickly because otherwise, they won’t.

Certainly speaking for third sector organisations, I think there’s a desire there but they’re often staffed by volunteers and people who have got loads of other things going on because their organisation is looking after people who are homeless or are on the frontline of trauma or whatever it is. They need to do something on climate but they just don’t know how to do it. I guess one of my things would be that if there are things that they’re doing... I think the university is a really good example of working with the local community, whether it’s Townhead, Ladywell or others, to try and do that knowledge transfer piece but also to learn from them. What are the issues that are going on for them on the ground? I would totally agree with Roddy and I do think people are moving. Certainly, COP has brought this to the top of people’s radars, whether it’s strategically or through risk. 

Matt:  Manish, I wanted to just bring it back just a moment to our students. Many of our listeners, hopefully, are familiar with the University of Strathclyde. If they’re not, you’ll be familiar with another university and some of the fantastic students that are moving through there. Sometimes, when I maybe feel a little bit listless and maybe don’t feel particularly anchored [laughter] on the day-to-day work, I have to remind myself that the real value of what I do is... I’d like to think the research is valuable but actually, the most valuable thing is that new generation of students coming through because there’s only one of me but there are hundreds and thousands of them. If you can just plant a seed and send... ‘fly my pretties’ in various different directions to do something meaningful, that’s really powerful. I’m having this creeping realisation that that’s a real responsibility on my shoulders and, indeed, the rest of the higher education sector.

So I wanted to get a sense from both you, Manish, and also Roddy as to where is the student base here at the moment. Where is their thinking? I know climate change typically is seen as a much more important subject for the younger generations but you mentioned, Manish, about this kind of this crushing anxiety that’s almost paralysing which is what I was interpreting from what you were saying but is the fire in the belly there? How is this translating into action? Are students looking at this as something that requires citizen action or are they actually going to make change through their work and studies? I’m just taking the pulse of the Students’ Union really. 

Manish:  I think I was maybe slightly unfair to students at the start when I was saying we didn’t have a lot of activists. I think it’s part of their DNA. Of course, the biggest problem of their time is climate change. You don’t need to convince them. You don’t need to tell them that. They know it and so actually, they’re working on it. They’re working on it right now in their courses. They’re working on it through their projects that they do, whether they’re engineers or whether they’re in humanities and social science. Actually, in many ways, they’re already doing the work.

At Strathclyde, for example, we’ve got things like Strathclyde Inspire which is focused on entrepreneurship and innovation and we’ve got businesses out of that that are focused on climate solutions. There are spinouts from that. There are folks who are working on sustainability issues, poverty and various other things. I think the students are very alive to it. I think they’re looking at the problems that are out there. They’re looking at employers and what they’re doing on this issue because I think it’s a bit more than climate for them. I think it’s about a value set and whether the employer's values align with their own values. I actually think the group of young people that we’ve got... not just young people but just students in general... people are here to learn in the context of the real world and the real world around them.

So actually, I think I’d like the students to push us harder if I was being totally honest. I would like the students to push the union harder and push the university harder on the things that matter to them. I think we’re trying to create spaces and places for them. We’ve got the Sustainability Hub coming in the next few weeks and hopefully, that starts to create actual manifested spaces where they can come together, organise and then start to push some of these things. So I think it’s just about giving them some time and access to resources as well. 

Matt:  That sounds very exciting. Roddy, during your time at Strathclyde, have you seen a change in that student mindset? Obviously, we’ve been through all sorts in the time that you’ve been at Strathclyde. 

Roddy:  Yeah, I’ve been here seven years now. The changes I see are students realising they’ve got a stronger voice and that they can vote with their feet. They will look at workplaces. I have two young adults who have left... well, one is at university and one has just left and they will think about climate. They will think about social justice. They will think about the ethics of organisations that they engage with, whether that’s work or placements and so forth but I think they look to us, as a university and HEFE, to lead by example. They expect that we should be cognisant of these issues, taking action, demonstrating that this is important and is part of our value set and demonstrating the positive change so that they can be proud of that, I suppose, in a way but also that we create the skillset that will enable them to respond, understand and unpack some of these hugely challenging issues for them. So I sense that’s the biggest change. They’re not passive anymore.

I’m old in the tooth and [laughter] I’ve had a long career and I’ve worked with students in another university and they have a voice now. I think that’s an asset for them but it’s also an asset for us to use, as Manish says, to get our students out there in society making a difference. 

Rebecca:  Just picking up on that leadership point because I thought that was a really nice framing with this focus on our students and people that are going to be leaving tomorrow being more engaged and having more of a voice but wanting to see that leadership from institutions like the university. Looking forward to COP27, what are you hoping might come out of that, either at that kind of international level or what might come out of it in terms of driving a stronger leadership for the UK, for cities like Glasgow or for universities like Strathclyde more generally? Do you have particular hopes? Manish, maybe you could kick us off. 

Manish:  It’s like a massive tradeshow, the COP, isn’t it? Everybody is there. There are researchers, business interest groups, NGOs and world leaders and so there’s an opportunity in that two-week period. There’s a spotlight on these things and I’m hoping that we can use that in terms of what we do here in the university to just keep the conversation going and kickstart the conversation. We’ve seen, in the last couple of weeks, the need for political leadership.

I’ve always maintained that the solutions are there. We just need to find the money and the political will to actually enact some of these things. Whether you think the Prime Minister should go there or not, I think it sends a very strong signal about how important this is to the domestic agenda and so I really hope that, once again, it’s an opportunity for politicians to come together. I think the planet got a pretty good shot in the arm at the weekend there with Lula being elected the president in Brazil which is much needed for the Amazon and various other things.

I think there’s an opportunity to drive bigger political conversations over these next couple of weeks and I think part of our job is about how we translate that to our students so that they actually understand that what happens in Sharm el-Sheikh has a direct impact on what goes on for them in their studies and in the world of work that they’re going to come into. 

Roddy:  Yeah, I think we need to take a lead and go back to that. I hope that someone from the UK turns up [laughter]. 

Matt:  Anyone [laughter] Just anyone. 

Roddy:  Alok Sharma, of course... and the whole Global North and Global South thing and respecting people, respecting their space and their place and valuing the cultural diversity and the assets, of course, which we rely on for our transition to net zero and which is largely in the Global South, yet we don’t respect it. We have to use these conferences to really thrash out reparations or whatever issue it is and we have to be a global society that’s together and not us and them. I think that’s an everpresent issue and how you make that real for society and people trying to battle with all these other issues [laughter] that they’ve got to deal with but it has to be part of the dialogue. It can’t be forgotten and just be an add-on. It has to be embedded and integrated and we can somehow cleverly make this stuff part of our day-to-day activities internationally, nationally and locally. 

Matt:  Is it fair to say, Roddy and Manish, you’re breathing a little sigh of relief that you’re not having to host another one this coming week? 

Manish:  I’m a bit sad if I’m being honest. The adrenalin and the energy... I don’t know but it’s not every day you get to interact with the Secret Service and the Met Police and host very high-level people but at the same time, I think one of my favourite things was that we ran a daily picture feature just outside the bar and just hearing from students and ordinary people about the things they were doing around climate action and that, for me, was fantastic.

I tried to get the band back together to see if we could have done a bit of a programme and like all these things, everyone is busy on other projects and the funding wasn’t quite there but I’d have loved to have done a small programme even in the middle weekend but we just never managed to pull it together, unfortunately. So there’s a slight tinge of sadness maybe. 

Roddy:  Yeah, that was great. I got to go to the Blue Zone. It was an incredible experience but my focus is on getting stuff done. That’s just the way I work. I’d rather be out there making stuff happen. Do you know what I mean? That’s my DNA. But we have to talk, we have to have dialogue and understand what we’re trying to do here and make it real for everyone in society and not the politicians or the delegations. We have to work together at speed. We’ll have to get on with it. 

Matt:  Well, you heard it here first on Local Zero. If things don’t work out in Sharm el-Sheikh, Manish is more than happy to host proceedings [laughter]. The door is always open. 

Fraser:  Isn’t it that you have to get the most votes? You have to win in Sharm el-Sheikh and then it comes back here. That’s right, isn’t it? 

Manish:  That’s right and then Liverpool gets it as always happens [laughter]. 

Matt:  Well, Manish and Roddy, thank you so much. That was fascinating. You’re welcome back anytime to Local Zero. 

Roddy:  Thank you. 

Manish:  Thanks for having us. 

[Music flourish] 

Rebecca:  You’ve been listening to Local Zero. Thank you to our guests, Dr Roddy Yarr and Manish Joshi. If you haven’t already, go find and follow us @LocalZeroPod on Twitter to get involved with the discussions there and do feel free to email us at LocalZeroPod@gmail.com. We absolutely love hearing from you. 

Matt:  So please, if you can, take just two minutes to subscribe so new episodes reach you automatically and if you can, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. This really does help to spread the word about the podcast and helps us reach new listeners. So until next time, goodbye. 

[Music flourish]