1: Countdown to COP26 in Glasgow
COP26 in Glasgow is one year away - so where are we on the path to a zero carbon future? In this first episode, the Local Zero team tackle the big questions on climate change, and start to explore how local ‘place-based’ solutions may hold the key.
Episode 1 contributors:
Renee Van Diemen a senior scientist from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
Sam Gardner, Scottish Power's Head of Climate Change & Sustainability, and chair of the Edinburgh Climate Commission
David Reay, Chair in Carbon Management & Education at Edinburgh University
Erin Curtis, aged 16, volunteer coordinator for Glasgow Youth Strikes
Angus Miller, Glasgow City Council's Environment, Sustainability and Carbon Reduction Chair.
Essential Reading:
https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/
Episode transcript
Matthew: Are we ready?
[Intro music]
Hello, my name is Dr Matt Hannon.
Rebecca: And I’m Dr Rebecca Ford and welcome to Local Zero. This is episode one.
We’re going to be spending the next year focused on planet Earth’s most urgent question and that is what can we all do very practically about climate change?
Matthew: So in this first show, we’ll set out the scope of the Local Zero pod series, what we hope to cover over the next year and all our episodes leading up to Glasgow’s COP26 next November. Joining us shortly will be Professor David Reay, a leading expert in Carbon Management and Education at the University of Edinburgh. He tells us about how COP26 in Glasgow is the most important gathering of its kind ever.
‘I think it will set the future of our climate for decades to come, probably centuries, so we cannot afford to get it wrong.’
Rebecca: After that, we’ll hear a bit about the science behind climate action when we’re joined by Renee Van Diemen from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change or the IPCC for short.
‘Strong scientific evidence should really be the basis of all decision-making and that’s what the IPCC provides; that scientific assessment that’s rooted in the underlying literature about what we know about climate change and what we can do about it.’
Matthew: And we’re also joined by Sam Gardner, who’s lead for Climate Change and Sustainability at Scottish Power and he’s chair of the Edinburgh Climate Commission. He says those with the most power have the greatest responsibility.
‘The transition that’s needed requires leadership from certain sectors and, in particular, the public sector; from the Scottish government, from the UK government and from local government and they have to be able to put in place the pathways that enable behaviour change and incentivise investment and innovation in new technologies.’
Rebecca: But first, we need to explain a bit more about what the Local Zero podcast is and what we’re setting out to achieve over the course of this series.
[Music flourish]
Matthew: Becky and I are both academics at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow. We work on how government and industry can best accelerate a net zero transition across the whole energy sector. We both live in Glasgow and next year, it’s set to become the centre of the universe on climate change issues and that’s when the United Nations Climate Change Conference, COP26 for short, lands here next November.
Rebecca: And over the course of this series in the next year, we’re going to hear from dozens of the country’s brightest minds who are working at the cutting edge of these issues.
Matthew: We also have with us on hand for every episode our researcher, reporter and master of all trades Fraser Stewart.
Fraser: Yeah, thanks Matt. I’ll be on hand to provide some of the research background and some of the perspectives from people on the ground and the people whose lives these decisions and these solutions affect directly. We’ll be trying to keep the conversation grounded and trying to keep a real-world perspective.
Rebecca: Thanks, Fraser.
[Music flourish]
Clearly, we’re going to be looking forward to COP26 and to what the UK needs to do but before we look forward, I thought we could start by looking back because today is my birthday...
Matthew: Happy birthday, Becky! [Laughter]
Fraser: Happy birthday, Becky [Laughter]
Rebecca: Thanks team [laughter]. I’ve been looking back a little bit just to see how things have changed in my short 38 years on this planet, so I’ve got a little quiz for you. I’d like to say thank you to Our World in Data that’s powered by the Oxford Martin School at the University of Oxford for all their amazing graphs and charts that I’ve completely ripped the knowledge from for this little quiz. First of all, I thought I’d ask you if you know how many people are alive on the planet today.
Matthew: Right, I’m teaching on this [laughter] so I should know the answer. I think it’s 7 billion.
Rebecca: You’re very close; just over 7.5 billion.
Matthew: I nearly said that but I’m happy with 7 billion.
Fraser: Just half a billion out [laughter].
Rebecca: What about in 1982?
Matthew: Fraser, you go on.
Fraser: 4.5 billion?
Rebecca: Oh my gosh! Spot on! 4.5 billion. Good job!
Matthew: Good shout!
Rebecca: So let’s think about what that means in terms of energy use. For those who really understand energy, this is primary energy consumption and so the amount of energy that we’re producing that goes into the energy system. So today, the world’s primary energy consumption is 159k terawatt-hours.
Matthew: I have no scale of reference for that but it sounds a lot [laughter].
Fraser: It’s not just population difference; it’s more intense now as well. What did you say, Becky? 159k?
Rebecca: Yes.
Matthew: Wow!
Fraser: Matt, on you go.
Matthew: 100k?
Fraser: 50k?
Rebecca: If you averaged your answers, you’d be about there. It’s 82k terawatt-hours.
Matthew: So it’s roughly doubled.
Rebecca: It’s roughly doubled but that change hasn’t happened uniformly across the world. So in Europe, we’ve gone from 19k terawatt-hours to 23k terawatt-hours, so fairly similar even though it’s quite a long time but...
Matthew: Countries like China, India...
Rebecca: Exactly, yeah. Asia Pacific is where it’s all been happening. It’s had a five-fold increase from 14k up to 72k.
Fraser: Wow!
Matthew: I can believe it.
Rebecca: Even so, what we’re still not accounting for in the figures today is that regions like Africa have still got very, very low consumption even though their population is very significant.
Matthew: So what’s that? Is that Fraser – one and Matt – one? I’ve lost track already [laughter].
Fraser: I thought we were a team, Matt [laughter].
Rebecca: As long as I’m winning, I’m okay with this [laughter].
Fraser: There’s no ‘i’ in team, Fraser.
Rebecca: We’ve talked about energy. Now let’s think about what that means in terms of carbon dioxide. This is the one that I think is absolutely critical. In the world now – actually, not even now as this is two years ago in 2018 – there were 1.6 trillion tons of carbon dioxide emissions in the atmosphere. What do you think that was in 1982?
Matthew: I mean it makes sense for me if we half that again versus energy consumption, so – I don’t know – 0.8 trillion? 800 billion?
Rebecca: Close. It was 0.6 trillion, so less than half and what that means is that just during my lifetime, we’ve more than doubled the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the world.
Matthew: Happy birthday [laughter].
Fraser: How much of that is you specifically? [Laughter] Do you have an idea of what your footprint is?
Rebecca: It’s all me! [Laughter] I’m responsible for everything.
Fraser: Correlation is causation [laughter].
Rebecca: Thanks.
[Music flourish]
Matthew: So I’ve been doing a bit of digging on 1982 as well. So Fraser and I have been sending late-night texts about incredibly geeky things. We’ve got two little facts here. The first is that 1982 was when Exxon formally admitted - at least internally via an internal memo through their Director of Theoretical and Mathematical Sciences, Roger Cohen, who wrote a memo basically stating that ‘the consensus is that the doubling of atmospheric CO2 from its pre-industrial revolution value would result in an average global temperature rise of roughly 30 (1.50 either way).’ They were acknowledging this even back when you were born. It’s quite shocking to hear that. The other one was that 1982 was when the Thames Barrier was opened and I’ve got a question for you guys. How many times do you think it’s been closed since 1982 all the way up to June 2020? How many times did they have to shut it to avoid catastrophic flooding in London?
Rebecca: From 1982 up till 2020?
Fraser: I have no idea. No idea.
Rebecca: 15?
Matthew: Fraser, you’ve got to pick a number.
Fraser: 20?
Matthew: Okay, you’re way off. It’s been 193 times [laughter].
Rebecca: So we’ve had these indications then of climate change and some of the potential causes of that for so many years and it just shows you how much inertia is in the system to get action happening on the ground.
Fraser: Yeah, Becky, you are officially as old as climate denial [laughter]. That’s what we’ve learnt [laughter].
Matthew: Yeah, absolutely.
[Music flourish]
So, it’s not all doom and gloom though and I think really that’s what this podcast is about. We’re about showcasing some of the exciting local climate initiatives that are already underway and to demonstrate that many of these solutions are already within reach.
[Music flourish]
Fraser: The reasoning behind it and the reason that the name was Local Zero in the first place is this idea that we talk so often about climate change and climate emergency and the environment more generally, even energy, we talk about these things as being enormous international and almost abstract issues that don’t necessarily – we can’t feel them and we can’t see them and maybe there’s not anything that we can about them. When in reality, a big part of the way to resolve these issues, and a lot of the most effective work that’s happening to tackle these issues, is at the local level.
As much as climate change affects everyone, so does the work that we do locally have the power to affect and fight back against the climate emergency as well. So that’s the rationale behind it for me.
[Music flourish]
Rebecca: I’m cautiously excited and I’ll tell you why the cautiously; it’s because I feel like especially in the middle of a pandemic, people have got a lot on their minds and they might not be thinking explicitly about climate change and climate solutions. The reason that I’m excited is because I think a lot of the solutions that we’re going to be talking about can address other aspects of their lives as well. So coming up through the series, we’ll be doing something that focuses on fuel poverty, warmer homes, cleaner transport and looking at all of these other dimensions that have a massive impact on how comfortable people feel in their homes and how they feel about their children’s future.
I remember when I was a mum walking around the streets of London with my kids in the buggy and really feeling quite worried about the air pollution in the city and the idea that the vehicles were going to become electric and not have so many emissions was very, very exciting. So I think there’s this real excitement around the opportunity to help harness climate solutions to deliver a huge range of different impacts on people’s lives.
[Music flourish]
Matthew: What I hope is this has the opposite effect of how I’ve felt when I’ve turned on Radio 4, walking into the kitchen midday or at the end of work, which is one of absolute dread. I want somebody to listen to this and have a spring in their step at the end of it, feel like they can be empowered to do something and they actually can draw a line between those actions and some positive effects; not just for the environment, not just for the economy but for society as well.
[Music flourish}
Rebecca: We also want you to be as excited as we are and make sure that we’re answering all the questions that you have and the concerns that you may feel. So make sure you are following us on Twitter. Use our #LocalZero and our handle @EnergyREV_UK to send us questions, comments or queries that we can address later in the series.
[Music flourish]
Dave: My name is Dave Reay. I’m Professor of Carbon Management and Education at the University of Edinburgh and I also direct the Edinburgh Centre for Carbon Innovation.
Matthew: Thank you, Dave, and welcome to Local Zero. I just wanted to, I guess, begin with how are you finding lockdown life, particularly in the context of a new semester? I’m sure you’ve got your students starting amongst a host of other responsibilities.
Dave: Busy [laughter]. Yeah, I think talking to everyone across the university, it’s really, really busy and that’s on the back of a summer which was really busy for everyone just preparing and trying to get resources online. So yeah, hard work but I think everyone is just putting in an amazing effort and an amazing shift which is joyous to see.
Matthew: Are you starting to feel the pressure building around COP26? We’re nearly a year away. Is that something you’re starting to feel now?
Dave: Yeah, definitely. Obviously, we’re just coming up to a year to go. There are a lot of year to go activities going on.
Matthew: Absolutely and I think, just for the advantage of our listeners, some will understand what COP means and COP26 means and others will be asking what on earth we’re talking about. From your perspective, could you explain what COP26 is and, most importantly, why should we care about it?
Dave: Yeah, so COP stands for Conference Of the Parties. This is the members of the United Nations, so all the nations of the world getting together to talk about climate change. This happens every year at the Conference Of the Parties apart from this year where, because of Covid, it’s been delayed. This is the 26th and so, as you’d imagine, it goes back 25 years and it’s included some major discussions about climate change over that time. You might remember things like the Copenhagen Climate Summit which was COP15. It was a bit of a disaster in terms of trying to reach a global agreement and because climate change is a global challenge obviously, all nations need to make commitments and act on them. I guess the breakthrough of these COPs was COP21 in Paris in 2015 where we got the Paris Agreement on climate change and that was a huge step forward just in terms of getting some kind of consensus across nations. You could say that was the most important COP but that’s the most important COP until COP26. COP26 will be in Glasgow in November next year and that will mark, effectively, five years since Paris. The idea of COP26 was for all nations to look at their level of ambition in terms of meeting the Paris climate goals which is the key global temperature increase below 20 with an ambition of keeping it below 1.50. That’s in a context of global temperature increase already being over 10 and so we’ve used a lot of that headroom already. So those targets, when you then break them down by all the nations, it’s about what commitments we make and how much we are going to cut emissions. If you add up current commitments, it’s nowhere near enough. We’re on track for something more like 30 of warming during this century compared to the pre-industrial average. So COP26 is still the best game in town and the best chance we’ve got of all nations upping their commitments, of aligning with those Paris goals and keeping emissions down to a level where we’ve got a decent chance of meeting the Paris climate goals.
Matthew: So on that COP26 on November 21st, what are you hoping are going to be the big wins? What are the top priorities to take away from COP26 in terms of international agreement?
Dave: Yeah, it’s really about net zero. Net zero is this thing that the UK government has signed up to, so it’s in law, and the Scottish government and several other nations around the world have set a net zero target. We’re still emitting some emissions from some sectors like aviation and food production but they’re balanced by sequestration, by taking the emissions out of the atmosphere so we hit net zero. For developed nations like ours, we need to get there by 2050 at the latest. So that’s the key focus for COP26 which is to get the developed world to commit to net zero and this includes the US committing to net zero by 2050 at the latest. Obviously, aligned to that is also the developing world nations with more finance for them to be able to adapt to climate change but also cut their emissions too or limit their emissions and then reduce them. What we need is a lot more ambition but I think COP26 is going to live or die on whether that net zero by 2050 or earlier is something that all the nations get on board with.
Rebecca: So Dave, it’s in Glasgow, it’s in the UK. Are we being ambitious enough in driving forward change and supporting other nations making change?
Dave: Well, we will see quite shortly, I hope, what the UK is going to commit to because obviously, having left the European Union, we make our own commitment in terms of our emissions and that comes in the form of a Nationally Determined Contribution, an NDC, that you’ll get sick of hearing about. As we have the joint presidency of the COP with Italy and, like you say, it’s going to be in Glasgow, the pressure is on the UK to really show leadership.
Matthew: So Dave, just on that, I’m kind of harking back to the London 2012 Olympics. I’m thinking that the big focus of that was the impact it would have on average households and your average Joe Bloggs and that they may start to take the spirit of the Olympics to start to change their lifestyles, like with more walking, more running and more cycling. Do you see there maybe being a similar COP26 effect, not just in Glasgow and Scotland but UK-wide? Do you think there is an opportunity for us to capitalise on that?
Dave: Yeah, there really is and there is a real danger that we don’t because if you’ve ever been to a COP, they feel like a bit of a circus inside with lots of people with stands, giving you badges and t-shirts and there are the negotiations in there as well and then outside, there are lots of protests. They tend to be the three rings of it but once you’re away from that city centre, or wherever it’s being hosted, the rest of the country often doesn’t get very involved in a COP. So there’s a real risk that that happens for us. I don’t think that will happen simply because climate change awareness in Scotland and the UK is really high. I’m optimistic it’s going to be a success but part of its success won’t just be what happens in those two weeks of negotiations. It will be the legacy like we saw with London 2012 in terms of our engagement in the UK with climate change, with our own climate change targets, how we work with other nations and what we do in our own homes and our own lives. That definitely needs to happen and certainly, I’m seeing signs of it here in Scotland and, like I say, I hope that the same kinds of conversations are happening across the UK.
Rebecca: So we talked about the importance of national governments setting priorities and really having an impact on the international scene and the potential for some of this ambition and excitement to overflow into cities but what do you think cities can do maybe in the lead-up to COP? Can they come together? Is there a way for them to help address those global zero targets or perhaps play into the ambition that national government can set?
Dave: Yeah, I mean one of the reasons I’m so optimistic is even before Covid and with lots of other stuff going on, which could make you think we’re not doing enough on climate change, cities and communities were already making big commitments and doing great stuff. A lot of cities already have a net zero commitment which goes way beyond the national level, so much earlier, and they represent a really powerful voice in terms of understanding that local context, so understanding what issues they’re dealing with in terms of employment, in terms of transport, their built environments and the standard of the homes and business that are there. They’re also a really powerful voice to talk from our perspective as their inhabitants in the cities or in rural communities like mine to talk back to central government and say, ‘Look, you’ve got your net zero target. That’s all well and good but there’s this barrier in the way and there’s this barrier in the way. We want an alternative to sitting in our petrol-driven car, for instance, to get to work but actually, you’re not providing that in terms of public transport or cheap access to electric vehicles or whatever it is.’ So cities and local authorities have a really, really crucial role in this and a lot of them, like I say, have set targets which are really ambitious. If we’re going to (I suppose this overused phrase) bring everyone with us on the journey to net zero, so really address climate change in a way which is sustainable and which is just, then you can’t just do it from a national government perspective. You need the cities, you need the local authorities and you need the local communities to be involved, have a voice and act. So yeah, the more of that the better.
Rebecca: Do you think they’ve got enough of a voice at the moment? Is government hearing them?
Dave: Actually, what we’re seeing, which is brilliant, is a real push from so many sectors of society in different cities saying to the UK government, ‘For your Nationally Determined Contribution, be ambitious! Lead the way. Really push us and don’t take the easy way out because that doesn’t help anyone.’ This is a once in a lifetime or multi-lifetime opportunity for all of us in the UK and Scotland. For me, it’s the biggest climate conference there will ever be in terms of the most important. I think it will set the future of our climate for decades to come and probably centuries, so we cannot afford to get it wrong.
Rebecca: Thanks, Dave. That’s absolutely fab! You’ve given us so much to think about, contextualised COP26 and really given us some hope and excitement for the future, so thank you very much for joining our show.
[Music flourish]
Matthew: Up next, we’re going to introduce a key part of the climate change jigsaw. These are the people or, indeed, the organisation that puts the science backbone into climate action and that’s the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
Renee: My name is Renee Van Diemen. I work for Working Group 3 of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and I work within the science team. I’m a senior scientist there.
Matthew: So for those who aren’t in the know, what is the IPCC?
Renee: So the IPCC stands for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. As the title suggests, it’s an intergovernmental body. There are 195 member states that are part of the IPCC. Really, its main purpose is to provide regular assessments of the scientific basis of climate change. This means its impacts and future risks and really what we can do about it, so what we can do to adapt to these impacts or what could we do to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions so that some of these impacts won’t occur. The main audience for the IPCC assessments is policymakers. The main intention and objective is to provide governments at all levels, so not just national governments but also subnational governments or local governments, with scientific information that they can then use to develop climate policies.
Matthew: How has the work of the IPCC fed into previous COPs? We’ve got COP26 coming up in November next year as it’s been delayed. How is this evidence or this synthesis of evidence and these reports meant to inform what goes on there and obviously, subsequently?
Renee: Yeah, that’s an excellent question, Matt. You jumped on the word synthesise here. The IPCC doesn’t actually conduct its own research. It’s really an assessment of all of the available scientific literature that’s out there. We have thousands of scientists that volunteer their time to assess what’s known and what’s out there in the scientific literature. The first report from the IPCC actually came out in 1990 and it informed the establishment of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, the UNFCCC. We then had the second assessment report which came out in 1995 and that then provided the scientific information leading up to the Kyoto Protocol and now I’m going to jump ahead a little bit. We had the fifth assessment report, so this one was our latest one which came out in 2013 and 2014 and that provided the scientific input for the Paris Agreement. Strong scientific evidence should really be the basis of all decision-making and that’s what the IPCC provides; that scientific assessment that’s rooted in the underlying literature about what we know about climate change and what we can do about it.
So I think there’s an increasing recognition also in the scientific literature that it’s not just national governments or international cooperation that will get the job done on climate change. There’s a very big role to play with regards to local actors or subnational actors, so really anyone that’s not a national body. This could be city-level governments, community-led initiatives, or even the private sector and the scientific literature around this is also growing. The IPCC has actually said that we’re going to produce an entire special report just focusing on cities. It does show that the science is really moving on this and increasingly being taken into account.
[Music flourish]
Matthew: Renee, thank you so much. You’ve covered a tremendous amount of ground there [laughter].
That’s a huge job Renee and colleagues have got to do. Rather them than us [laughter]. What they produce is absolutely critical to providing that evidence base to inform action.
Rebecca: Certainly, for me, it really brought to life just how much evidence is out there and what an important job they do at synthesising all of that evidence and bringing it together in one place so we can start to see how this fits together; not just in terms of the climate science but actually, what can be done about that and what can be done to mitigate against climate change and provide pathways for action to deliver net zero.
[Music flourish]
Matthew: As we know then, COP26 is due to take place in Glasgow in November 2021 and along with stark implications for global climate policy, what does hosting COP mean for the net zero ambitions of Glasgow? Here’s Fraser.
[Music flourish]
Fraser: COP26 will see some of the most high-profile leaders and organisations descend on Glasgow to try and solve the world’s biggest problem, the climate emergency, but what does that mean for the city itself? Before coming on to record today’s show, I took some time to chat with two people who are leading the way on climate action in Glasgow. While coming from very different backgrounds, both are very much looking forward to the city being in the COP26 spotlight.
Angus: So my name is Councillor Angus Miller. I am chair of Glasgow City Council’s Environment, Sustainability and Carbon Reduction Committee.
Erin: My name is Erin Curtis. I’m 16 years old. I volunteer with Glasgow Youth Strikes to help coordinate the events in Glasgow that we do. It feels like an opportunity in every sense of the word.
Angus: It’s an opportunity to put the city on the map globally in terms of signalling our ambition to be a leader in terms of climate action, and carbon reduction and to be recognised for some of the work that has gone on to date, both in Glasgow and in Scotland more broadly.
Erin: The whole point of COP is to have a place for people to come together and look for solutions to this imminent issue. It’s an opportunity for us to make sure that we are listened to and it’s also an opportunity for the people who may be centre stage, like the politicians and world leaders, to come together to make sure that they are taking everybody’s opinion into account.
Angus: There is also a great deal of opportunity to develop international partnerships because as much as we, as a city, want to be taking action at a very local level in everybody’s daily lives, there is clearly so much that we can learn from other cities around the world.
Erin: Glasgow is a very diverse place and that gives us a really exciting opportunity for COP because it means that there are so many people who are going to be able to come together and give all sorts of opinions. It’s not just going to be one set thing for every person, of course, so you’ve got to listen to people from all sorts of backgrounds, all sorts of places and all sorts of upbringings.
Fraser: Now, I’m not an old guy but I wouldn’t fall necessarily into the same young category [laughter] but I think a lot of the conversations that I have with people who are maybe a little bit detached from activism full stop think that it’s about protesting and shouting rather than solutions and having a conversation. Is that something that, obviously as an organiser, you try to be aware of and to be more solutions-focused and to be more discussion-focused rather than just shouting about problems?
Erin: Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean kicking up a fuss is always going to be an important part of what we do but this needs to come down to finding solutions as best as possible to this issue of climate change.
[Music flourish]
Angus: There’s this image of Glasgow as being a city in post-industrial decline. One of the things that I want to see is more of a discussion around that kind of experience of poverty and inequality, for example. The Green agenda has historically been seen as a middle-class preoccupation. It’s been as something that speaks to a narrow set of issues that don’t concern the vast majority of people and certainly, in left-of-centre politics. So we need to recast that conversation and recast climate action and sustainability as a social justice issue because we know it is.
Fraser: When you talk about bringing communities with you, especially underneath the Scottish government umbrella of Just Transition, and of now focusing on these inequalities and trying to, in some way, rectify them and treating energy, climate and environment as a justice issue, do you see a way for Glasgow City Council to maybe try and foreground some of those communities when COP comes to town?
Angus: Yeah, I would absolutely want to make sure that those communities that we’re talking about are there in the foreground and that we’re talking about the impact and that we’re talking about the opportunities for people to step up locally and in their own lives and on a community scale.
Fraser: Do you think COP can stimulate more effective climate action in Glasgow and on the other side of that, do you think Glasgow can bring something specific to COP?
Erin: It looks very hypocritical to host an event of such importance and of such worldly importance – COP26 is going to be one of the most important COPs there has been and will be, particularly because obviously we’re at such a pivotal point but also with coronavirus and everything that’s happened, how do we come back from that? How do we rebuild in a greener future?
[Music flourish]
Rebecca: So that was Erin Curtis from Glasgow Youth Strikes and Angus Miller of Glasgow Council there talking to Fraser earlier. As you can see, COP26 is being seen by many as a call to arms, particularly here in Glasgow. We’ve spent quite a bit of time in this first episode of Local Zero looking at what COP means for policy. Next up, what does it mean for the energy industry?
[Music flourish]
Sam: I’m Sam Gardner. I’m the Head of Climate Change and Sustainability for Scottish Power but I’m also chair of the Edinburgh Climate Commission which is a new initiative set up in Edinburgh. It’s all about how we work with partners across the city to accelerate delivery on the ground in Edinburgh so that we fulfil the ambition to be net zero by 2030 which, of course, is the same ambition that Glasgow has set itself.
Rebecca: Wow! Very different perspectives there coming from Scottish Power but then also from bringing together the voice of Edinburgh City and their ambitions. Do you see lots of different organisations and people being responsible for coming together and driving this change or is one part of society taking the lead?
Sam: I think the glib and easy answer is to say we all have a responsibility and it’s true but it’s not an equal responsibility. Clearly, the transition that’s needed requires leadership from certain sectors and, in particular, the public sector from the Scottish government, from the UK government and from local government which has to be able to put in place the pathways that enable behaviour change. It has to put in place the pathways that enable and incentivise investment and innovation in new technologies. Unless we get that pathway mapped out for us, it’s an incredibly frustrating experience for communities, for individuals and for small businesses to try and pursue a transition when they’re coming up against institutional or economic barriers to that. So yes, we all have a responsibility, absolutely; be it here in my home and how I heat my home, what I do and how I travel but those with the greatest power have the greatest responsibility.
Matthew: I just wondered where you see that kind of relationship; the conduit, I guess, between big business and local communities.
Sam: That’s a good question. I think big business, and Scottish Power certainly is a renewable energy generator, is present across the UK and it has a relationship to our customers. It has a relationship to the communities in which we generate electricity. It has a relationship to a huge supply chain and as such, we have a responsibility to work with all of those stakeholders and all of those partners, both in communicating the necessity of tackling climate change but also communicating the benefits and ensuring that those benefits are realised basically; driving change across supply chains, building new opportunities and working with the education in the tertiary sector to support enterprises and apprenticeships that will bring new people into the sector. So yes, big business is, by definition, big and can seem somewhat detached and removed but when you look at what we do as a business and how we operate, it actually takes us right down to the ground and how we interact with communities and with households. We have a really big responsibility to do that in a way that is going to accelerate the response to climate change.
Matthew: You mentioned there the third sector and, of course, your previous role was with WWF. Are there any lessons that big business, such as Scottish Power and other companies, can learn from third-sector NGOs about how they can engage with local communities to really try and drive this kind of local action forward?
Sam: I’m sure there are. My experience in an NGO was as a national campaigning NGO and not one that presumed to have the rich understanding that many community groups do about how to advocate for change within your local community. Again, it might sound glib but you actually have to listen to what it is that people are saying in the community. In Scotland, we’ve had some great initiatives like the Climate Challenge Fund which is run across Scotland and has been a resource that communities can bid into to drive forward initiatives within their area that are identified as having a need and having a mandate within that particular location in order to do something that’s going to further their community but also to tackle climate change. The transition that we need to do to get to net zero has to be a coming together of the enthusiasm, the energy and the understanding that communities have about the nature of change that’s needed in their area matched with national frameworks. I think one of the things that is going to become increasingly apparent is that we don’t have a one size fits all approach to net zero. We don’t even have a one size fits all approach within a single city. We need solutions that are bespoke and we need local government to be resourced and empowered to make those decisions and work with the infrastructure providers, like the network infrastructure providers, to produce solutions that are fit for purpose for the type of housing and for the nature of those particular cities.
Rebecca: So let’s talk a bit more about the solutions because you’ve mentioned a few things around housing, heating and so on but what do you actually think these changes are going to look like on the ground at the city level, at the household level and even at the industry level?
Sam: In some instances, the changes won’t be hugely visible. You will still have a warm home. You’ll still be able to heat your home. What’s happened is how you heat your home has changed or what is used, more technically, to heat your home has changed. We have to transition from a reliance on natural gas which is obviously a fossil fuel that we burn away in our homes. That transition isn’t one that’s going to change the nature of your house or how you live your life. You’ll still have a warm home but we are going to have to find models, policies and incentive frameworks that motivate individuals, households and communities to take that step that builds demand that provides the signals for industries such as the power sector that I’m in to look and see the opportunity around electrification. We need to be doing, on average across the UK, about 4,000 heat pump installations a day if we’re to be on track for net zero by 2050 across the UK. We’re nowhere near that and I guess that’s perhaps one of the biggest things that confront us. It isn’t the technology. It’s the pace at which we have to deploy this technology.
Rebecca: So who’s going to push that forward? How are we going to get this happening faster?
Sam: That acceleration that we need to see has to be driven by a clear pathway and that pathway has to be signalled by the UK and Scottish governments and the Committee on Climate Change made a call on the Scottish government just very recently that it has the opportunity to be the first nation to set out a pathway to net zero and that’s absolutely what’s needed in the first instance. We need to have clarity as to whether or not national governments... what role do they see for electrification versus hydrogen? What role do they see for demand reduction? How are we going to enable the fabric improvement to our properties that we need to see to get them ready? So in terms of building blocks, how do we get to a level of demand that equates to the pace we need to see? In the first instance, we need a pathway and we need a policy framework and we simply don’t have that at the moment.
Rebecca: How does industry play into that? What’s Scottish Power’s role in all of this?
Sam: In the context of COP, we have a particularly, I think, important role. We are part of Glasgow and a really integral part of the city and want to play our part as being a host. We want COP to be successful for Scotland, for Glasgow and for the world and we will do all we can to make sure that happens. We will have a full programme of initiatives and events and try and just be a convening space, if you like, during COP to try and ensure that positive legacies are driven out of COP. We can’t place the success of COP entirely in the hands of the political process. We need to lock in commitments from corporate Scotland, so we will be working with others across Scotland to try and do that. We’ll be working with others across the UK in order that we can play our part in driving forward that net zero economy that we want to see in the net zero future that we have to see if we’re to tackle climate change.
Rebecca: That’s brilliant. Thank you, Sam. Very interesting to hear the perspective of cities and also industry and how we can work together in delivering against this net zero commitment that we, let’s face it, have to deliver on.
[Music flourish]
We’ve just heard from Sam all about COP26 and what that means for the energy sector and for cities. We’ve had some great guests on the show already. So what does all of that mean? Fraser?
Fraser: I think some of the big takeaways from the interviews - and everyone obviously brought their own expertise which was amazing because I feel like they picked up on one or two similar themes and ideas. Specifically, one of the big takeaways, especially from Dave and Sam but also from Angus, Erin and Renee as well is the spirit of collaboration. So a big lesson from this is that everyone involved, whether you’re within the energy sector, policy, activism, whatever it might be or academia, there is a constant understanding that there needs to be a large degree of collaboration to make these solutions a reality.
Rebecca: I think collaboration is absolutely key, isn’t it? Although governments have got a clear role to play in COP in terms of setting the agenda, particularly for the UK government this year and cohosting the COP presidency, they’ve got a real role to play not only in the UK’s ambitions but also in trying to encourage other countries to be more ambitious. At the same time, we were hearing I think a lot about how cities can not only help deliver on that ambition but maybe even be more ambitious and encourage the government to set more ambitious targets in and of themselves.
Matthew: I think that’s an interesting one. I mean Edinburgh is a really interesting example of that as well. It’s a horse and cart question, isn’t it? Which is which? Who is leading who? Is it COP leading national leading cities or is it cities leading national leading COP? For me, this link between the levels, these tiers that are almost like bits of string... you pull here and there’s a ripple effect up and down. It’s fascinating to understand where the cities fit in it. Are they delivering or leading?
Rebecca: Well, and also industry. I mean we heard from Sam about Scottish Power and the role that big industry is playing. Just think back five or six years; you wouldn’t necessarily have seen industry playing in quite the same way and maybe even fighting change. Whereas now, they’re at the forefront of change, so thinking about the role that they can play in helping drive action forward as well.
Fraser: Something that all of them picked up on, absolutely, was leadership too which I think when Matt talks about the horse and the cart, it might not be the worse thing that everyone sees themselves as having a leadership role to play. Everyone wants to drive that innovation and drive that change which I think might only be a good thing. One thing that Dave picked up on was he said that COP26 is the most important COP and potentially the most important conference-style event ever. Do you guys agree with this?
Rebecca: Possibly one of the most important for the UK seeing as it’s hosted here and like we were hearing, it’s got the potential to trickle action over and really get to people on the group and see people actually engaging with it which might not happen when it’s happening overseas. So I can see why that’s the case for the UK but I think it feels like we’re at so many tipping points and there are so many big issues coming together and starting to see how we can really create synergies in action and create a pathway for rapid change.
Matthew: Of course, one of the biggest issues at the moment is the US Election which, at this very moment, we don’t know the result of. I was hearing a collective sigh of relief from various policymakers and NGOs when COP26 was delayed for a year because there was a feeling that actually, now we may know who the president is and can start to build that international effort around that new order or we may have the old order still in place. Who knows? I think moving on to another issue, I just wanted to point to what Renee was saying about the connection between subnational layers. When we saw the US leave the Paris Agreement and we saw states and, in fact, cities start to take a leadership role, I think for me that set something in motion which maybe rippled across the Atlantic and they saw some of the cities like Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds and others start to take more of a leadership role and this idea that could connect. You know when you went to a new town or a city and it says ‘Welcome to...’ wherever and it says ‘Twinned with...’ I often think in my head, ‘Is that something that could happen with climate action?’ Could we see Glasgow twinned with Austin on these issues?
[Music flourish]
Fraser: So we’re coming to the end of the episode and like all good professional radio shows do, I want to introduce what I hope will become a recurring segment. This recurring segment will be called Future or Fiction. Within this segment, I’ll present either a tested technology or a new technology idea that I’ve just invented and Matt and Becky will decide if they think it’s real, if they think it’s the future or if they think I’ve just made it up or pulled it from some kind of fantasy novel or film. So the first ever Future or Fiction is space-based solar. In a space-based solar power system, fleets of robot satellites with mirrors could reflect solar radiation onto solar panels which can then be beamed down to Earth. Do we think it’s the future or do we think it’s fiction?
[Low steady beat]
Matthew: So we’re talking satellite mirrors beaming the sun onto a satellite orbiting planet Earth.
Rebecca: Yeah, we’ve heard of floating wind turbines [laughter]. I think this is a step further, right?
Fraser: Solar radiation onto the mirror, mirror onto the solar panel, solar panel to Earth.
Matthew: It sounds expensive, Fraser [laughter]. We’ve already got concentrating solar power on planet Earth. I’m not sure why we’re going to put it into space, so I’m out. I think that’s fiction.
Rebecca: Yeah, I can see the idea behind maybe not getting through the atmosphere and having a better chance of concentrating the solar rays but getting that power from a satellite down to Earth, I mean I have enough trouble trying to charge my iPhone on one of those wireless charging pads. No, I’m with Matt. Fiction.
Fraser: You both say fiction?
Matthew: Yeah, fiction completely.
Fraser: Both going with fiction. It is, in fact, the future. In 2015, all those years ago, the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency successfully converted 1.8KWs of energy into microwaves and beamed it a distance of 50 metres through the atmosphere. So we can beam, allegedly, solar power that way across distances.
Rebecca: [Laughter]
Matthew: Amazing.
Rebecca: That was brilliant [laughter]. I can’t believe that that’s real.
Matthew: Every day is school day with you, Fraser.
Fraser: That is from the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency. I can link it. I haven’t just made it up.
Rebecca: So thanks for being with us for our very first episode of Local Zero. Just some housekeeping before we go. We’re going to be releasing episodes fortnightly on Thursdays. So every other Thursday, you’re going to get a brand new episode of Local Zero. That’s the three of us talking about climate change and smart, local energy right into your podcast feed. So check us out on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and really anywhere that you get your podcasts. Subscribe, spread the word about what we’re doing and get in touch with us if you’ve got any questions that we can answer for you in future episodes. You can tweet us using the hashtag #LocalZero and handle @EnergyREV_UK.
Matthew: Next time, we’re looking at how Covid has affected the road to net zero and the role that local climate action can play in the recovery from this pandemic.
[Music flourish]
So thank you very much for listening and until next time, goodbye.
Rebecca: Bye all.
Fraser: Bye, bye, bye.
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